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<p>Dave -</p>
<p>Your reference to Science Fiction tropes reminds me of Larry
Niven's "Footfall" wherein an alien species somewhat resembling
Elephants "lands" on humanity with all four feet heavily and we,
in our monkey-selves respond hyper-aggressively and clamber our
way (metaphorically) up these huge creature's legs to eventually
drag them down. As I remember the arc of the plot going, humans
are vastly outdone by these (advanced technologically) creatures
who seem hell-bent on "stomping us into the ground". It took an
anthropologist/zoologist (by perspective if not training) to
recognize that as some human battles got the upper hand, that the
"elephants" would "roll over" and being the angry monkeys we are,
we would use their vulnerability to "finish them off", after all,
they had been "stomping us into the ground" for months/years by
that time, so we had to use the upper hand given us. What was
recognized was the similarity of these "elephantine creatures" to
terrestrial elephants and that they were sincere in their
submission to our (rarely but occasional) superior ability in
battle. The amateur *-ologist convinced someone in a position of
authority in the military to *try* offering a formalized
(ritualized) "submission" to the aliens which yielded the
hoped-for results. This opened the door to a negotiation which
had heretofore been ignored/rebuffed... as if the alien
"elephants" did not understand negotiating with a "rival" until
there had been a test of ability/will/strength between them, and
the "monkey's" insistence to just fight harder when outmatched
seemed insane to them. As it ended (I think), it turned out that
the "elephants" were refugees from a dying solar system just
looking for a habitable place to settle, and were quite advanced
spiritually/intellectually/technologically and happy to coexist
with us... particularly well since they were herbivorous and also
had plenty of tech/art to offer us as a "companion species" if we
would just quit being so brutal when confronted, and submit when
bested! <br>
</p>
<p>I don't pretend this translates directly to our current red/blue,
right/left problem, but there may be some useful ideas in there.
Mary and I both came from Gun-toting, extraction-industry,
red-state, red-neck stock and are both often *appalled* at what
our family's and (former and current) neighbors find to be
"reasonable" and "justified" (broadly Trumpism at it's worst) and
yet on any given topic, we can understand (if not agree with their
positions)... My own family is more problematic (in my opinion)
than Mary's I feel like her brothers come by and maintain their
limited world-view more rightly... no advanced education, strong
blue-collar/extractive jobs, travel limited to 2 year stints on
ships in the Navy, annual pilgrimages to Sturgis and one-price
cruises or guided scuba expeditions with groups of their own
"kind". My sister and her husband have traveled/lived the world,
have advanced educations and are part of the worldwide network of
advanced Transcendental Meditators who got up at 5AM (AZ time
daily to meditate (pray?) together to smooth the 2020 election
with their karmic resonance).... they are (decades late) on board
with climate change, COVID-is-real and being honest about
immigration pressures (finally) but were full up Trumpians until
COVID. They are just "judgemental and sour" people when it comes
to evaluating other's abilities/motivations/social-standing. They
do fine with people they actually *meet* and *know* but are quick
to dismiss huge swaths of people because of their differences? I
think this style of dismissal of others is what you (Dave) keep
calling *us* out on, even if the subjects are a different subset
of the population. I'm just happy I can have meaningful
conversations with one of their three children (and both of my own
and all of Mary's) on these topics. The baby-boomers (and my mom
who is of the 'Greatest') will just have to age/die out for a lot
of this to change?</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">In a different thread, Glen wrote:<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><i>"what many of us purport to </i><b><i>*want*</i></b><i>
... common ground with which to have a discussion with the
right wing wackos in our lives."</i><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">Although I have heard people
express a desire for such conversations and questions about
finding a common ground upon which to base them — I do not
believe a single one of them was honest or sincere.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">There is only one circumstance in
which a 'conversation' with a wacko has any point: a
professional psychiatrist seeking to mitigate the mental
condition of a patient.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Perhaps "right wing wackos" is
simply a label (RWW) for a group and not an assertion of their
sanity. <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">If RWW are an alien species, ala
Martians, then conversation/dialog/exchange might be quite
useful and even beneficial — the SciFi trope of "look how much
we could learn from someone with such a different perspective."
An alternative SciFi trope: "we can never understand each other
so we must be implacable enemies and seek to annihilate each
other;" is also possible. (Unfortunately, I think the second
trope is far more descriptive of the majority of left-vs-right
rhetoric these days.)<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">If RWW are simply an exotic human
culture; conversation, dialogue, exchange; all are eminently
desirable.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">However, there are preconditions —
maybe just one — the ethical principle of cultural anthropology:
relativism. There are no objective criteria by which you can
judge the 'correctness' the 'rightness' the 'fitness' (there is
no cultural evolution theory analogous to Darwin with species)
or the 'morality' among cultures. To think otherwise is
ethnocentrism.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">Ethnocentrism is perfect if your
goal is to be a cultural imperialist or a missionary, but is not
a foundation for constructive dialog or conversation.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">I love and respect you all, but
you seem to me to be one of the most ethnocentric
(Liberal-Scientism, for want of a better label) cultures around.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">A common saying about the role of
an anthropologist: <i>"to make the strange familiar and the
familiar strange."</i> An ethnography of the RWW would be, in
my opinion, quite valuable; and, along with dropping the
ethnocentrism, prerequisite to any conversation with them. You
run the risk, however, that your study of the mote in the
other's eye will craft a lens or a mirror that will reflect the
beam in your own.<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br>
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