<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>Nick -</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:02f801d6c927$d0b998a0$722cc9e0$@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered
medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:#0563C1;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoPlainText, li.MsoPlainText, div.MsoPlainText
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Plain Text Char";
margin:0in;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0in;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:Consolas;}
span.PlainTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Plain Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Plain Text";
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
span.EmailStyle27
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}</style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Steve, I have been pretty sick all day,
sleep about tUUentytuuof the last tUUenty four hours. Many of
my symptoms are covidish, but I have been as isolated as
anybody on the planet, so I don’t knoUU UUtf is going on. So,
Just to say, I uuont be answering your splendid message any
time soon. <br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Wow dewd! I hope you are COVID (and influenza/etc.) free... <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>This is a stale posting so there is no time-critical thing...
just don't check out on us while we hold our breath waiting for
your response!</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I hope your recover is shaped and informed by our collective
thoughts/prayers/karmic/morphic-resonance</p>
<p>- STeve<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:02f801d6c927$d0b998a0$722cc9e0$@gmail.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">No<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and
Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve
Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 7, 2020 2:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Nick -<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Shaping is done by geometric and physical constraints in my
lexicon. I use Informed to be more Inform-ational than
physical and to suggest that the "informing element/domain"
actually provides some of the "material" or "substance" or
"content" than the "shaping domain" would. Glen doesn't
like us flapping on about metaphors expansively and
arbitrarily, but to imply that an emotional reaction has a
"shape" suggests more physicality and geometry than I
intend. The "emotional reaction" in discussion may well have
a deep neurological pattern to it, but *that*
physical/geometric/topological shape is likely very difficult
to map onto what I mean when I think "emotional reaction".
To be self-referential, "what is the shape of your emotional
reaction" to my (and others?!) use of the term "informed" do
you think? *I* think your emotional reaction is likely
*informed* by previous experiences you have had with "hoity
toity" (Glen's term of art for much of our
prattling/bloviating here, methinks) words being used where
something simple and utilitarian could be used mo' better.
Maybe other uses of "informed" have been more egregious (or at
least less intentional) than my own here, leaving you with a
"hair trigger" on the topic.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I'm probably just picking fights here because I wouldn't get
past the first perimeter of the White House... prodding at
others' "triggers" (I have a particular aversion to that word
for my own reasons which are probably *shaped* (or informed?)
by the metaphorical domain implied of perhaps firearms,
explosive devices or other kinetic weapons). One of my
biggest triggers perhaps is the use of the term "trigger" in
an emotional context. It makes me want to "go off" on the
person messing with my "trigger". I suppose one could say it
is a "hair trigger"? So, in the future, I will *shape* my
sentences to avoid using the term *inform* outside of the
literal usage of one individual transmitting *information* to
another! <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>This is all in fun of course... I'm really not triggered
here nor trying to trigger anyone else beyond the
superficial. Displacing hand-wringing with vapid banter
perhaps.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Carry on,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> - Stee<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">“shaped”, steve. It was shaped. You
know what “shaped” means. Nobody knows what “informed”
means, in that usage. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">And if you ever use “incredibly” to mean
“very” or “incredible” to mean good, I will come after you
with pitchforks. Somebody said on a podcast that the
NYTimes had some incredible reporters. In an age in which
credibility is the central issue of our time, we do not want
to fudge its meaning. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">n<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and
Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 7, 2020 10:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Once one practices modulating a class
of these feelings it changes how or even if one
experiences them. Having empathy can just be another
form of being reactive which is not a good way for adults
to be IMO. It is equally reactive to be enraged every
time Trump or Trumpers are on TV. They dehumanized
themselves.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p>I believe that suppressing one's
pity/sympathy/empathy/compassion entirely is the "reactive"
mode... I suspect our friend Donald started down that path
at a very young age and has only the barest echoes or ghosts
of those feelings remaining. I knew too many "western
men" as a child who seemed to have done the same with their
relationship to nature and animals... being brutal with
predators/varmints leading to a certain brutality to prey
(game animals) to their own working stock (cattle, sheep,
rabbits, horses, dogs) and then ultimately their families
(wives, children) and could-have-been friends. They were
not devoid of this, but there was something about the
lifestyle and circumstance (and social context) that seemed
to strongly encourage, if not require, that suppression of
empathy.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>As a teen I was faced with a looming conscription to go to
Vietnam and "kill some gooks" (sorry for the patently non-PC
framing, but it captures at least half of the image of the
time) as well as being faced with letting that happen and
returning to the other half of the country shouting "baby
killer" in my face. I *knew* that these were not my only
two choices, but it forced (opportuned?) me to consider what
I had to lose if I let my own country (and most of it's
citizens) inject me (like a pinball) into that pinball game
of "no good choices". What I had to lose was my empathy, as
underformed and possibly even maladapted as it was at 14 or
16 or 18 years old. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I am not willing to treat empathy as nothing more than an
"emotional reaction", though I acknowledge that it is
informed (sorry Nick, I can't help using that idiom) by a
deep emotional experience. Perhaps Empathy is to Pity as
Justice is to Revenge... most of the Right might think
this is splitting hairs, and perhaps they have swayed the
Left into the same perspective? Everyone's loss.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>- Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 7, 2020 9:07 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group' <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Glen, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I don't think of empathy as
something that you gin up; it either happens to you, or it
doesn't. And then you decide what you want to do with
your empathy. As a child, perhaps,, did you ever read any
of Ernest Thompson Seton's (no relative) <b><i>Lives of
the Hunted</i></b>? The wolf, terror of the Corrumpaw
(?), wily killer of sheep, evader of traps, lies before
you in a cage, wounded and helpless. You feel empathy.
And so you kill it. Anybody who tells you that you <i>should</i>
feel empathy lacks empathy for your lack of empathy. I
WILL feel empathy for Trump when he's tried. I dread
those trials. In fact, even watching him twist and lie
and twist and lie, watching him contort, makes me queasy
inside, like watching a man tortured. But empathy, like
rage, is just another emotion, and needs, like all
emotions, to be tempered with reason. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and
Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
On Behalf Of u?l? ???<br>
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 6:54 AM<br>
To: FriAM <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">A collection of people, who shall
remain nameless, recently tried to shame me for objecting
to their waste of empathy for poor lil ol Trump, in light
of his infection. One argument went something like "His
father was horrible." One primary argument went something
like "empathy begets empathy". Empathy is not zero-sum.
Etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I started my objection to all this
Trump-as-a-victim talk by listing several aspects of his
CHARMED LIFE, like the fact that he's lucky enough to have
lived to a ripe old age (when so many of us die young), he
was born wealthy (when so many of us live our entire lives
dirt poor), his stupid TV show was wildly successful (when
so many of us are serial failures), his weaponized
litigousness has benefited him throughout his life (when
so many of us can't even afford a lawyer). Etc. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">All that *privilege* has been
bestowed upon him. And it seems, to me, he's squandered it
all. He reminds me of those pitiful pictures of Saddam
Hussein in court and then prison and then dead. Oh
boo-hoo, poor little dictator being mistreated. Such
sentiments are not merely weird to me. If game theory and
the success of simplistic tit-for-tat has taught us
anything, it is that the algorithmic *depth* required to
beat straightforward (poetic) "justice" is academically
interesting, but pragmatically degenerate.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">So, no. I will not waste any of my
finite lifetime feeling sorry for poor lil ol Trump, our
Privilege Squanderer in Chief. If that magically limits my
ability to empathize in some other context, so be it. If
it implies that when I die pathetically, under some
bridge, eating partial hamburgers from the Wendy's
dumpster, my colleagues *rightly* avoid wasting their
finite lifetimes feeling sorry for me, then I'm ready for
that day. Like it or not, tu quoque is a fallacy.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">--<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">↙↙↙ uǝlƃ<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ...
-..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group
listserv<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6
bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">archives: <a
href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</span></a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> <o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> <o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
archives: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>