<html>
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<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
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<body>
<p>Kinda like the villain in a melodrama that spends the entire
"last act" dying dramatically.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/7/21 3:57 PM, Frank Wimberly
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAA5dAfpzEk3ghVazJsgcw-Wbab2oYG5uGv4oTWx2ooRPYMk4pA@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">One of the senior psychoanalysts in Pittsburgh
once said to my wife that nothing is sadder than the last act of
a narcissist.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">"Act" as a metaphor for part of a play. I will
be interested to learn whether I will have empathy for Trump
during his last act.<br>
<br>
Frank<br>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 3:40 PM
Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word"
lang="EN-US">
<div class="m_-6175756913147361664WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">The feeling must at least be bounded
– it is simulated and controlled. One is trying to get
the upper hand. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of
</b>Prof David West<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">It
states that making a connection by showing the
target empathy is a great way to get past defenses
and obtain more credible information than torture —
and it said this long before CIA idiots decided that
waterboarding was the way to go.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, at 1:21 PM, <a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
id="m_-6175756913147361664qt">
<div>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">I
wonder what the cia handbook says about empathy
during interrogation.</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">n</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<div>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Nicholas
Thompson</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Emeritus
Professor of Ethology and Psychology</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Clark
University</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
</div>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Marcus Daniels</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday,
January 7, 2021 1:41 PM</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> The Friday
Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM]
the power of metaphor.</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">If the
CIA builds up a dossier on the foibles of a foreign
leader and possible ways to manipulate that leader,
I would not call that empathy. Can one get in the
skin of another without feeling their pain or
validating it? I think one certainly can, and that
it can be better to do that in many situations. </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">friam-bounces@redfish.com</span></a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">thompnickson2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday,
January 7, 2021 11:29 AM</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> 'The Friday
Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">friam@redfish.com</span></a>></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM]
the power of metaphor.</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Does
seeing imply visual vulnerability? Hearing imply
auditory vulnerability? Well, I suppose. Any time
we make ourselves open to information, I suppose we
are in some sense vulnerable. But aren’t we also
impowered? Feelings only make one vulnerable if one
fails to process them. </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">N</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<div>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Nicholas
Thompson</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Emeritus
Professor of Ethology and Psychology</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Clark
University</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
</div>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">friam-bounces@redfish.com</span></a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Marcus Daniels</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday,
January 7, 2021 12:03 PM</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> The Friday
Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">friam@redfish.com</span></a>></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM]
the power of metaphor.</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">A
problem with empathy is that it typically understood
to be a “feeling”. Feeling means offering
vulnerability. The class of people we are
discussing should not be offered that. They should
be shown, in a calm and steady manner, to a bland
government bus after the empathy value is firmly in
the off position.</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">friam-bounces@redfish.com</span></a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">thompnickson2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday,
January 7, 2021 9:51 AM</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> 'The Friday
Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">friam@redfish.com</span></a>></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM]
the power of metaphor.</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Well, I
hate to shortcut a perfectly good argument, but I
think, now, we agree. If you concede that empathy
is a form of perception whose value as information
cannot be denied, I can readily agree that so
focusing on one’s empathy as to avoid all other
sources of information is dangerous and stupid <i>and
cloying.
</i> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Nick</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<div>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Nicholas
Thompson</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Emeritus
Professor of Ethology and Psychology</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Clark
University</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
</div>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">friam-bounces@redfish.com</span></a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Marcus Daniels</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday,
January 7, 2021 11:39 AM</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> The Friday
Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">friam@redfish.com</span></a>></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM]
the power of metaphor.</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Sure, I
use my eyes and visual cortex to judge the speed of
an oncoming car. But I shouldn’t model that last
fractions of a second before impact in luxurious
detail. That’s suicidal. I should step on the
brakes or the gas to avoid the collision. That’s
what all this empathy talk strikes me as – giving
dangerous people so many mental cycles that they do
collide into you. Wringing ones hands before
victimization is complete. No, take the mental
cycles and develop some tactics and strategy for
preventing these people from being dangerous. </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">I only
mention Ted Cruz because he seems a slightly
interesting person, in a sort of satanic way. Most
of the others are mad dogs as far as I am concerned.</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">friam-bounces@redfish.com</span></a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">thompnickson2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday,
January 7, 2021 9:30 AM</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> 'The Friday
Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">friam@redfish.com</span></a>></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM]
the power of metaphor.</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Marcus,</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">You
could not have written what you wrote here, with
it’s searing pointedness, without empathy. Empathy
is not an ideology; is an organ of perception. </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">n</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<div>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Nicholas
Thompson</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Emeritus
Professor of Ethology and Psychology</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Clark
University</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
</div>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">friam-bounces@redfish.com</span></a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Marcus Daniels</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday,
January 7, 2021 11:05 AM</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> The Friday
Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">friam@redfish.com</span></a>></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM]
the power of metaphor.</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">The
prior reflections by Glen on young adulthood makes
me wonder about Ted’s. Was there a particular
point at which he decided to be a public person and
that he realized he could find an angle in any
situation? Did he anticipate what his life would
become, or did he just fall into it? Sometimes it
seems like he doesn’t even enjoy it. It seems
there is no objective distance he gets from his
nihilism. There’s just always the next thing he has
to do.</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">friam-bounces@redfish.com</span></a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">thompnickson2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday,
January 7, 2021 8:53 AM</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> 'The Friday
Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563c1">friam@redfish.com</span></a>></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> [FRIAM] the
power of metaphor.</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Bret
Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a
serpent covered in Vaseline” . Will I ever get that
image out of my head?</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Nick</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1"> </p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Nicholas
Thompson</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Emeritus
Professor of Ethology and Psychology</p>
<p class="m_-6175756913147361664qt-msonormal1">Clark
University</p>
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