<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">I also found the branch to normativity odd. Took listening to several rounds of this joust to find quite the right metaphor to express why.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If I suddenly became Chaitin, and cared more than anything else about which numbers were random and which weren’t, I would be saddled with a need for criteria by which to assign such attributions. That would blossom into a whole system to study kinds of order and what-else there might be where they are absent, and there goes that lifetime.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If I wonder whether a series of thought events is ordered, and whether the way it is ordered would also be shared by some other set of thought events so that they could be understood as some kind of family, I would then need to pursue a theory of what kinds of order thought-events can have. Since I am NOT a logician, and look in through the window as the elves work, I can only say that that is what the work looks like to me. The question whether conditions of order can be worked out seems to me much wider than an effort to develop true positions, and also not dependent on values of rightness.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If someone asserted to me that a capacity for ordered thought, which one might recognize and be able to use deliberatively even if it were not one’s first impulse, I could not help but hear such an assertion in context of </div><div class=""><a href="https://twitter.com/i/status/1346919171595137025" class="">https://twitter.com/i/status/1346919171595137025</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Eric </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 14, 2021, at 2:14 PM, <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">No, I still disagree. IFF thinking holistically is the only way to think rightly, THEN thinking holistically is the only logical way to think. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">But we are about to be bickering over definitions, rather than clarifying meanings. So long as you know that there is normative dimension in how I understand “logic”, and I know that for you, there isn’t, that in your usage there is truth-seeking argument that is not logical, then we probably will bore other people if we go on arguing. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">But I love you like a brother,<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Nick<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Nicholas Thompson<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Clark University<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,WcEXDxbkWbvZmr0Yic6uGJe6QUiSdLk4Us2IkkSR-5mVa5oiq1hItZ1MqZkJ2uT_T6R-q3eglXi-j8uQEd4KewG_NOwxTZyw2fKbUNc-KcaTFt4,&typo=1" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Merle Lefkoff<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, January 14, 2021 12:55 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam@redfish.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [FRIAM] it's world logic day!<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class="">No, Nick. Thinking logically is just not thinking holistically, it misses the whole enchilada, and one of the reasons we're doomed--clumsy, but the best I have time to come up with now.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 10:24 AM <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Merle,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I think the objection you have to logic flows from the misunderstanding of what logic is. If you define logic is thinking that leads to truth, then any thinking that leads to truth is logical, and the project of Logic Studies is the project of finding out what sorts of thinking lead that way. So, I would re-interpret your objection to be that logic, as we know it, is so constrained as to be dangerous and misleading. I don’t want us to give up on truth-seeking – as the pragmatists understood truth. [Glen, I stipulate your objections.]<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Nick<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Nicholas Thompson<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Clark University<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,4vZtXdTeJZ543lRfT-6ZdBDfuQvz7NlRr6l4qjkMMenpAJKELbuSaNxl5vGwj7oS4L3tMM-HeidEa39BG0ppLaHI4LwPH9YYIFDtrPaU&typo=1" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Merle Lefkoff<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, January 14, 2021 11:00 AM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam@redfish.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [FRIAM] it's world logic day!<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class="">I find this celebration very disturbing and even dangerous at a time when some are beginning to realize that logic alone is bereft of the complexity of all the ways of being in a more-than-human world.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 9:32 AM <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class=""><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Thanks, Glen,<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">It’s nice to know that logic is being celebrated. Still – surprise!—I have a correction.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588quotation" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Logic ... [is] the principles of [right] reasoning,<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Funny how, this article, a celebration of logic, buggers the definition of logic, leaving out it’s ethical dimension. Well, unless one believes that specious or fallacious logic is “logical”, logic is “good” thought, i.e. thought that leads probably to the truth. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Nick<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Nicholas Thompson<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Emeritus Professor of EthologTy and Psychology<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Clark University<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,aeSvMKOFCoPIAr7StSgBvUS8UFrxexuhsNtNVvEbRbqTBHmnR-vj8gxkVgkCxsHrJqKRxFJPzB0c8JHSkAlG5s9Mmmq4XzyEXEFpNvVjCbWoNvo,&typo=1" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">-----Original Message-----<br class="">From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> On Behalf Of u?l? ???<br class="">Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 9:48 AM<br class="">To: FriAM <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam@redfish.com</a>><br class="">Subject: [FRIAM] it's world logic day!<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><a href="https://en.unesco.org/commemorations/worldlogicday" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;" class="">https://en.unesco.org/commemorations/worldlogicday</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">> The ability to think is one of the most defining features of humankind. In different cultures, the definition of humanity is associated with concepts such as consciousness, knowledge and reason. According to the classic western tradition, human beings are defined as “rational” or “logical animals”. Logic, as the investigation on the principles of reasoning, has been studied by many civilizations throughout history and, since its earliest formulations, logic has played an important role in the development of philosophy and the sciences.<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">> Despite its undeniable relevance to the development of knowledge, sciences and technologies, there is little public awareness on the importance of logic. The proclamation of World Logic Day by UNESCO, in association with the International Council for Philosophy and Human Sciences (CIPSH), intends to bring the intellectual history, conceptual significance and practical implications of logic to the attention of interdisciplinary science communities and the broader public.<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">> A dynamic and global annual celebration of World Logic Day aims at fostering international cooperation, promoting the development of logic, in both research and teaching, supporting the activities of associations, universities and other institutions involved with logic, and enhancing public understanding of logic and its implications for science, technology and innovation. Furthermore, the celebration of World Logic Day can also contribute to the promotion of a culture of peace, dialogue and mutual understanding, based on the advancement of education and science.<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">--<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="gmail-m-5552372912591917884gmail-m-5816066354038635588msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; 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