<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi Nick,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There’s a certain libertarian rhetorical flourish that (to my ear) takes the form of defiantly asserting that nobody should expect you to give a damn about anybody else. But often people to whom indulging in that flourish is important are people who are quite concerned about right action, even at the same time as THEY REALLY DON’T LIKE TO BE TOLD WHAT TO DO.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Okay, so the world’s complicated.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">A society with no ethos that I am sometimes my brother’s keeper degrades — I believe — eventually to an arena of sociopaths. Mostly even in our worst conditions we are not that. There have been some examples in history that start to approximate it, and by comparison we can see that we are not near there yet.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So why dissemble? Dissembling is another vanity, which gets in the way of trying for clarity. To do it for art, for entertainment, for the joy of expression, all good; we want life to have ample space for all those. But if clarity is an objective, to say that, yes, I was born human, and you are human, and that saddles me with certain not only options, but responsibilities of inhibition to care for your wellbeing, gives a report of what you can expect from me. Expectations are important in the domain of non-cooperative (in the technical, game-theoretic sense) domain of actions. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So, only that I find the importance of that style odd.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Eric</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 27, 2021, at 11:56 AM, <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)" class=""><style class=""><!--
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word" class=""><div class="WordSection1"><div class="MsoNormal">Hi, Eric, <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">Can you say a bit more? I didn’t follow. If it’s obvious, somebody could just take pity on me and write me off line. <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">n<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" class=""><span style="color:#0563C1" class="">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,oTWQ6f3rapztElVX--SJNLRw3-TwPwxKm2W2jOwzlc7BSxR1R5VelmCKaAVimO60kHy_Z9jc8_PxMHKUYmmRT4TjoicvR8TiTVLzZU4B1nGTWgD_UOI,&typo=1" class=""><span style="color:#0563C1" class="">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in" class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class="">From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b class="">On Behalf Of </b>David Eric Smith<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 27, 2021 9:54 AM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" class="">friam@redfish.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">I should have added, in the previous post, that the odd thing is that I know from the earlier exchanges that you already know this, and take some pride in following it.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:37 AM, David Eric Smith <<a href="mailto:desmith@santafe.edu" class="">desmith@santafe.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">An even bigger inhibition comes if how you are doing matters to me, and I would rather contribute to helping that than to dragging it down.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:29 AM, Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" class="">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">Nick,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><i class=""><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">"I would hate it if some Good Government A-hole like me would start dictating what could our not appear on FRIAM."</span></i><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">A "government A-hole" is already there, albeit indirectly. All kinds of laws against myriad different types of post. Plus, via tech puppets, vast swaths of 'speech' / 'postings' are prohibited from appearing, even in "private" fora such as FRIAM. And when rule 230 is essentially eliminated, it will get much worse. Not to mention the excess prohibition of any type of "hurtful" speech that will be coming in the months ahead — all prompted by government A-holes legislating.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">But the biggest inhibition on what can or cannot appear on FRIAM arises from the majority culture and the self-censorship of those sensitive to it.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">davew<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class="">On Tue, Jan 26, 2021, at 5:40 PM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: auto;-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;overflow-wrap: break-word;word-spacing:0px" id="qt" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">Right, Marcus. That's where I ended up, too. While I need to IMAGINE that you can understand me, in order to write some of what I write, the fact that you don't, in the short run, doesn't matter. The illusion of you attentively listening has broken many a writer's block. I would hate it if some Good Government A-hole like me would start dictating what could our not appear on FRIAM. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">You are in the unenviable position of agreeing with me. (};-\)<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">However, I do wonder what some of those people would say if we were better at engaging them.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">Nick<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" class="">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,bta9UWO0tN3h5jdaTwk3lVb6V2StIFgDn8R4YlJvylk2j2NV0QTwoEqVLuV_SiMM-GgMLLo5VNi8CE0-zKlFovQfSZlSC0MwI0seCIAWDLo,&typo=1&ancr_add=1" class="">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class="">-----Original Message-----<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class="">From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class="">Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 4:03 PM<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class="">To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" class="">friam@redfish.com</a>><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class="">Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">I'm not sure who you are accusing of what, and it doesn't matter. Fwiw, I suppose I follow a few underlying principles by default, unless I am being paid or whatnot:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">1) If someone is motivated to make a point or understand some topic, as there was some indication in some cases, then if some muttering is alien to them, they'll bother to puzzle it out or ask without being petulant about it.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">2) The burden is not on the speaker/sharer unless the speaker especially cares that the topic be understood and perhaps acted upon. Say, if the speaker is engaging in political advocacy, or defending some claim where they have some skin in the game. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">3) Electrons are cheap to move around and attention can be modulated.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">Marcus<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">-----Original Message-----<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" class=""><span style="color:windowtext" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</span></a>> On Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class=""><span style="color:windowtext" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 11:03 AM<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" class=""><span style="color:windowtext" class="">friam@redfish.com</span></a>><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">Well, generally that is the paradox. But the narcissism I am talking about is INTRA group narcissism -- writing a post that one knows damn well only 2 members of the group will understand. We are a sufficiently broad group that I imagine that if we developed a language understood by most of us, it would also be understood by a lot of other people. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">But there is value to narcissism that might be lost if we tried to standardize. That you all understand me is an illusion that helps me to write, and when I write, thoughts happen that I did not plan on happening. Even if NONE of you understood, that would be a gain for me. I think many of us write to the list in this delusional way, and I can't claim that that's altogether a Bad Thing.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">Nick<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" class=""><span style="color:windowtext" class="">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,ESdb80SJH_TwaTmvG9Uk5oZhrH-1Bhnrw7bS0eoiFMmvuv2zb7fbD06amSmSye5OF2rkvWZJEgpzLcIMjr_XZQXhsR76-FhwrdsNK0m5_Fy2&typo=1" class=""><span style="color:windowtext" class="">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">-----Original Message-----<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" class=""><span style="color:windowtext" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</span></a>> On Behalf Of u?l? ???<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 12:46 PM<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">To:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" class=""><span style="color:windowtext" class="">friam@redfish.com</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">IDK, man. This contribution rings a bit hollow. Jargon, insider jokes and words, etc. all serve group cohesion. Coming from Nick, who sporadically talks of FriAM as important *as a group*, including attempts to formulate some threads as coherent presentable things, it seems good, generalized/popularized, communication is antithetic.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">But it *does* bode well for treating forum posts as public essays rather than intra-group chatting ... which I've argued is the case. A flaw in my argument, that those who disagree with me have yet to point out, is that despite being publicly available on Nabble, it's not really a public forum. It's not widely read. We *do* use obComplexity jargon just to titillate each other. Etc. Perhaps the biggest obstacle to viewing these posts as public essays is that we don't have a standard set of rules (like Frank's) posts are expected to follow.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">So, the classical mathetists among us will argue that you can't have your cake and eat it. Either we're a group of insiders, a tribe, or this is a publication medium which should have some associated rules. Perhaps that's the paradox Nick's after?<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">On 1/26/21 10:19 AM,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class=""><span style="color:windowtext" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">> This correspondence has been an example of it self. Narcissism is the<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">> enemy of communication.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">> I suppose there is SOME sense in putting obscurities in email blasts to the list and clasping to your bosom anybody who happens to understand you. (I did that with my recent supervenience post and got one answer that was tremendously helpful) It’s like hitchhiking, then; you only need one ride. But while it makes some sense, as a general strategy of communication, isn’t it a bit pathetic, after all? Isn’t there some paradox in communication that is designed to be exclusive?<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">--<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">↙↙↙ uǝlƃ<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a 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