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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks, Jon. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>This is helpful. Still, absent dualism, why isn’t getting a machine to do what you want a kind of communication. Why privilege the inter-human kind. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>n<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"><span style='color:#0563C1'>ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"><span style='color:#0563C1'>https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 27, 2021 12:46 PM<br><b>To:</b> friam@redfish.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Nick,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>I am no longer a good programmer/coder, although once ... Really good coders like Glen, Marcus, Jon ... on the list, will probably disagree with me; but:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Coding/programming is not communication — if restricted to coder ----> machine -----> machine action. The machine is nothing more than the embodiment of a mathematical abstraction and coding is analogous to rearranging the symbols in a mathematical expression, such that, when resolved, the expression yields different results.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>No boss says what you quoted, but few programmers have not had the experience of "the damn machine keeps doing what I told it, instead of what I want."<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>But — a program has two audiences: the machine (no communication here) and other programmers (tons of miscommunication here). This is what the reference from Eric Smith talks about. There is an entire, usually ignored, paradigm in computer science called "literate programming" — the most prominent advocate, Donald Knuth.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>If one were skilled at literate programming, one would be communicating to another programmer (or herself at a later point in time) all the knowledge and meaning necessary for the latter to understand, modify, enhance, or correct the program as needs be. <b><u>If possible</u></b> this would be a communication skill worth developing — might lead to more precise and accurate communication outside the world of the computer.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>"If possible,"</span></b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> is key. Many, starting with Peter Naur, would argue that this kind of programmer-to=programmer communication is impossible because the medium, the code plus any written documentation, is too impoverished to communicate what needs to be communicated. In Naur's world, programming is joint theory building — a theory of "an affair in the world and how the program (addresses) it." Code and documentation represent maybe a tenth of that theory, the remainder being in the heads of those who developed it.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>davew<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Jan 27, 2021, at 10:56 AM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;overflow-wrap:break-word' id=qt><div><p class=qt-msonormal1>This flies in the face of my belief that you coders know something about life that we citizens need to know. I imagine coding to be like trying to write an instruction to a person such that that person always does what you want them to do. So, it is an act of communication in which the communicatee is always right, no matter how idiotic may be it’s response. No boss ever says to a coder, “Your code was brilliant but unfortunately the machine didn’t understand you.” <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1>Am I right about any of that?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=qt-msonormal1>Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1'><p class=qt-msonormal1><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:41 AM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>Subject:</b> [FRIAM] coding versus music<o:p></o:p></p></div><p><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific research reported on. I <b><u>want</u></b> the reports to be accurate representation of the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge domain.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>dave west</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>