<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">The term “computational thinking” incorporates all the points you brought up. <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ed<br class=""><div class="">
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class="">_______________________</div><div class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">Ed Angel<br class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)<br class="">Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico<br class=""><br class="">1017 Sierra Pinon</div><div class="">Santa Fe, NM 87501<br class="">505-984-0136 (home)<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "> </span> <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "> </span><a href="mailto:angel@cs.unm.edu" class="">angel@cs.unm.edu</a></div><div class="">505-453-4944 (cell) <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "> </span><a href="http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel" class="">http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel</a><br class=""></div></span></span>
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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 29, 2021, at 3:49 PM, Tom Johnson <<a href="mailto:tom@jtjohnson.com" class="">tom@jtjohnson.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">And I would gently suggest (not argue) that before ""algorithmic thinking" we should teach systems thinking/analysis: what will be the system in question and its defined boundaries, what the variables/agents within the system, the input/output relationships between those variables under what context/conditions, how do we measure change in the system and is the system capable of "learning," i.e. adapting to internal and external changes in its environment. <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">With these steps we can start to discuss algorithms. So there! Harump!<div class="">TJ<br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><img width="0" height="0" class="chq-track-image" alt="" style="display:flex; border: 0; width: 0px; height: 0px" src="https://www.cloudhq-mkt9.net/mail_track/mail/c70c01c9422b17194f_1611960559845?uid=226430"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><br class="">============================================<br class="">Tom Johnson - <a href="https://www.cloudhq-mkt9.net/mail_track/link/c70c01c9422b17194f_1611960559845?uid=226430&url=mailto%3Atom%40jtjohnson.com" target="_blank" class="">tom@jtjohnson.com</a><br class="">Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA<br class="">505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)<br class=""><a href="https://www.cloudhq-mkt9.net/mail_track/link/c70c01c9422b17194f_1611960559845?uid=226430&url=https%3A%2F%2Fl.shitrk.com%2Fr%2Fe%2F5KGR4cK9ZgaHrMkPr%3Fr%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fnmfog.org%2F" target="_blank" class=""><b class=""><font color="#0b5394" class="">NM Foundation for Open Government</font></b></a><br class=""><b class=""><font color="#0000ff" class="">Check out <a href="https://www.cloudhq-mkt9.net/mail_track/link/c70c01c9422b17194f_1611960559845?uid=226430&url=https%3A%2F%2Fl.shitrk.com%2Fr%2Fe%2FBNmKkirWv12Frw9Pg%3Fr%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpages%2FIts-The-Peoples-Data%2F1599854626919671" target="_blank" class="">It's The People's Data</a></font></b> </div><div class="">============================================</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><img width="1" height="1" id="shtracking_1s2" src="https://tc3.shitrk.com/e/01ka86bGM9P8VWew/5jpvMy1zmrk8G1BY/mxGkn85KGR4dXZvj" alt=" " style="display:none" class=""></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 3:00 PM George Duncan <<a href="mailto:gtduncan@gmail.com" class="">gtduncan@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">I certainly agree with Ed. Coding does indeed suggest the final stage for a particular language--should that colon instead be on a semi-colon. I would, though, argue for "algorithmic thinking" rather than "computational thinking".<br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br class=""></div><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">George Duncan</div><div class="">Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University<br class=""><a href="http://georgeduncanart.com/" target="_blank" class="">georgeduncanart.com</a></div><div class="">See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram</div>
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<div class=""> <br class="">My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><h1 style="letter-spacing:-0.02em;margin:0px" class=""><font size="2" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" style="font-weight:normal" class="">"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."</font></h1><div class=""><span style="font-size:small;letter-spacing:-0.02em;line-height:1.125em" class=""><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" class="">From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. </font></span></div><table width="85%" style="color:rgb(93,86,81);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;margin:auto;border-collapse:collapse" class=""><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td style="text-align:center" class=""><p style="margin-top:4px;margin-bottom:12px" class=""><font size="2" class="">"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.</font></p></td></tr><tr class=""><td valign="top" style="font-size:13px;text-transform:uppercase" class=""><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:27px;color:rgb(146,146,146);text-align:center" class=""><br class=""></p></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br class=""></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 2:53 PM Edward Angel <<a href="mailto:angel@cs.unm.edu" target="_blank" class="">angel@cs.unm.edu</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="">Going back to Dave’s original post, to me a big part of the issue is what is meant by “coding.” Unfortunately for manys in CS education, coding has come to refer only to the very last step in a complex process; namely, converting a final detailed set of instructions into computer code for a particular computer language. This is especially true of what as happened in the schools with programs that claim to teach coding and STEM. It’s why many of us prefer to use the term “computational thinking” when dealing with CS education.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If coding is just the final step (which could be replaced by a machine, if not now but soon) then it would be orthogonal to all these other skills.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ed<br class=""><div class="">
<span style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><span style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><div class="">_______________________</div><div class=""><br class="">Ed Angel<br class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)<br class="">Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico<br class=""><br class="">1017 Sierra Pinon</div><div class="">Santa Fe, NM 87501<br class="">505-984-0136 (home)<span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> </span> <span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> </span><a href="mailto:angel@cs.unm.edu" target="_blank" class="">angel@cs.unm.edu</a></div><div class="">505-453-4944 (cell) <span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> </span><a href="http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel" target="_blank" class="">http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel</a><br class=""></div></span></span>
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<div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:41 AM, Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" target="_blank" class="">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class=""><div style="font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial" class="">For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.<br class=""></div><div style="font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial" class="">A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.<br class=""></div><div style="font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial" class="">An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.<br class=""></div><div style="font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial" class="">I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific research reported on. I<span class=""> </span><b class=""><u class="">want</u></b><span class=""> </span>the reports to be accurate representation of the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge domain.<br class=""></div><div style="font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial" class="">dave west<br class=""></div><span 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