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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Frank,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>OOOOOOOOOH. I would like to see the argument that actors simulate emotions. How do you imagine that argument goes? Is that the difference between a Method actor and the other kind?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Frank, while I am bothering you, it suddenly occurred to me that I might send and receive text messages on my computer, and when I looked into the matter, there were a half a dozen apps that promised to do that. I have a crappy little clamshell phone. My need to send text messages is limited to exchanging messages with my “picker” at whole foods. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Nick <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"><span style='color:#0563C1'>ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"><span style='color:#0563C1'>https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Frank Wimberly<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 6, 2021 8:36 PM<br><b>To:</b> Russ.Abbott@gmail.com; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Back in the 80s Hans Moravec, author of "Mind Children: The Future of AI", and I used to argue constantly about the nature of consciousness. I forwarded Russ' post to him after decades without our communicating. Here is his reply in its entirety.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>"<span style='font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Hi Frank,</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Surely the position that emotions arise in the cortex is a straw man, I don't<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>know anyone who argues that. Reasoning rationalizes the drives, doesn't<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>cause them.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>That doesn't mean a reasoning AI can't someday simulate emotions, like<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>an actor or author. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Hans<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#888888'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#888888'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>We worked in the Robotics Institute. Neither of us wastes words apparently.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Frank<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br>140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>Santa Fe, NM 87505<br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sat, Feb 6, 2021, 6:17 PM Russ Abbott <<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com" target="_blank">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>About to be published.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>From a <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/feb/05/the-hidden-spring-by-mark-solms-review-the-riddle-of-consciousness-solved" target="_blank">review</a> by Oliver Burkeman:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#121212'>Burkeman: Using poignant case studies of neurology patients – including children born with brain damage, yet plainly still capable of sadness and joy – [Solms] argues persuasively that consciousness ultimately arises not in the cortex, the seat of advanced intelligence, but in the more primitive brainstem, where basic emotions begin.</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=gmaildefault><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Russ: </span></span>In other words, consciousness <span class=gmaildefault><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>exists far </span></span>down the tree of life.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#121212'>Burkeman: To the best of my understanding, the gist [of the book] is that feelings are a uniquely effective and efficient way for humans to monitor their countless changing biological needs, in extremely unpredictable environments, to set priorities for action and make the best choices so as to remain within various bounds – of hunger, cold and heat, physical danger, social isolation, etc – outside of which we can’t survive for long. Doing all that without feelings, and doing it as rapidly as survival requires, would take so many computational resources that it would lead to a “combinatorial explosion”, demanding levels of energy a human could never muster.</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Here's Nick Lane's <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Spring-Journey-Source-Consciousness/dp/0393542017/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8" target="_blank">blurb on Amazon</a>: (If you know Nick Lane, you know he is worth listening to.)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0F1111'>"At last the emperor has found some clothes! For decades, consciousness has been perceived as an epiphenomenon, little more than an illusion that can't really make things happen. Solms takes a thrilling new approach to the problem, grounded in modern neurobiology but finding meaning in older ideas going back to Freud. This is an exciting book."<br>― <b>Nick Lane, author of <em><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>The Vital Question</span></em></b></span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-- Russ Abbott <br>Professor, Computer Science<br>California State University, Los Angeles<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></div></body></html>