<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">Nick,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">first apologies for arrogance in first reply. I should have said that I find the definition derived from Bonner to be more understandable — to me — and, I think, it offers an actual mechanism / rationale that is absent, again to me, than "elaboration of epiphenomenon." I am enjoying the essay and i see an interesting connection with Wegner's <i>Arrival of the Fittest</i> book. That means Jenny Q will have to read it because and I are working on a paper in that area.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">On Sat, Mar 13, 2021, at 5:37 PM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Bonner's a great guy, but I think he's wrong on that, or you're wrong <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> in interpreting him. The whole thrust of Lewontin and Gould's work is <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> that there are developmental constraints in evolution. Even according <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> to orthodox Darwinian theory, mutation is random, but only with respect <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> to the opportunities a mutation affords. Nothing says that a mutation <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> can' be predictable, yet random in this sense. Any "random" assertion <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> requires a point of view from which the stated variable is random. Any <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> geneticist can tell you which mutations are more likely than others. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Nick <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Nick Thompson<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> -----Original Message-----<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> On Behalf Of Prof David West<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2021 6:04 PM<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Spandrel<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Nick, thank you. I get the metaphor but I think my “definition” is more <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> correct than ‘elaboration of epiphenom’. I get that notion from an <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> essay I am reading on randomness in evolution by John Tyler Bonner<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> On Sat, Mar 13, 2021, at 2:08 PM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > Hi Dave,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > Ok, since you are also a metaphor enthusiast, let me explain a <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > spandrel in terms of its root metaphor. A spandrel, originally, is a <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > decoration on the curved triangular spaces formed by the intersection <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > of two perpendicularly intersecting archways. The decorations are so <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > suited to their settings that one might imagine that the hallways were <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > designed to accommodate them, but, of course, it is they that are <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > suited to fit the spaces affording by the intersecting hallways. The <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > same confusion exists with the human nose. The nose is presumably <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > what was left over when the brain expanded, and the gut and the jaw <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > shrank. It has been elaborated since to accommodate its new position, <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > but the nose it self is the result of other adaptations, not of an <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > adaptation FOR a nose. The most graphic example, of course, of a <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > spandrel is the erectal and colored pseudopenis (hypertrophied <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > clitoris) born by the female stripped Hyena. It is not an adaptation <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > itself, but a consequence of powerful selection between female <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > genealogies for feeding competition at the kill, which has select for <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > high levels of testosterone in females. (The females are heavier than <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > the males, and, in general more nasty in every way<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > -- definitely examples of testosterone poisoning.) The coloration of <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > the pseudopenis is the spandrel-part, because selection has <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > subsequently led to its "decoration". Put another way, a spandrel is <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > a phenomenon which is an elaboration of an epiphenomenon.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > Does that help at all?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > Nick <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > Nick Thompson<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > -----Original Message-----<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> On Behalf Of Prof David West<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2021 2:43 PM<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > Subject: [FRIAM] Spandrel<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > A while back there was a lot of discussion of spandrels that I failed <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > to grasp.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > Is a spandrel a stable morphological trait that results from random <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > chance rather than natural selection?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > Or am I still ignorant.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > Davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > - 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