<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Thanks, Jochen. Two very interesting books.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">The Amazon reviews of the Dennett-Caruso book range from 1 star to 5 stars! The Amazon blurb on the book puts the focus on the implications of one's views about Free Will for moral responsibility.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">"<span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Amazon Ember",Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">Dennett argues that the kind of free will required for moral responsibility is compatible with determinism – for him, self-control is key; we are not responsible for becoming responsible, but are responsible for staying responsible, for keeping would-be puppeteers at bay. Caruso takes the opposite view, arguing that who we are and what we do is ultimately the result of factors beyond our control, and because of this we are never morally responsible for our actions in the sense that would make us </span><i style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Amazon Ember",Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">truly deserving</i><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Amazon Ember",Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"> of blame and praise, punishment and reward." Undoubtedly </span><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Amazon Ember",Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">an interesting discussion.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Amazon Ember",Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Amazon Ember",Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"> My concern is much less about moral responsibility than theirs. Moral responsibility adds an additional layer to the discussion that makes everything much muddier.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Amazon Ember",Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Amazon Ember",Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">I once knew a very intelligent determinist who argued that punishment was important nevertheless. It plays the same role as training for neural nets. Even though the neural net mechanism is deterministic, it's useless without training. Punishment, and more generally child-rearing and education serve the same function for society. They make humans much more valuable members. All that is fully compatible with determinism.</span></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><font><u style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16.5px;line-height:20px"><br></u></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font><u style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16.5px;line-height:20px"> </u></font><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16.5px;line-height:24.75px"> </span>-- Russ Abbott <br>Professor, Computer Science<br>California State University, Los Angeles<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 2:41 PM Jochen Fromm <<a href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net">jofr@cas-group.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto">The idea of "autonomous causation" reminds me of our recent discussions about "free will". A red traffic light causes cars to stop but drivers can refuse to stop if they do not want to stop. They have the autonomy to break the chain of causality. If you want to go in this direction you can cite Daniel Dennett's new book "Just Deserts: Debating Free Will"<br><a href="https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Just+Deserts%3A+Debating+Free+Will-p-9781509545759" target="_blank">https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Just+Deserts%3A+Debating+Free+Will-p-9781509545759</a><br><br>For stigmergy in general I would recommend the work of Guy Theraulaz. His book "Swarm Intelligence: From Natural to Artificial Systems" is a classic. Do you know the books from Mark Moffett: "The human swarm" and "Adventures among ants" ? He is a scholar of E.O. Wilson and argues that symbols and markers are important to identify a social group.<br><a href="https://3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2020/01/of-ants-and-humans-some-principles-of-social-organization.html" target="_blank">https://3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2020/01/of-ants-and-humans-some-principles-of-social-organization.html</a><br><br>Symbols can also be used to identify a product. They have causal effects for example if they represent a brand. Brands increase the probability that a consumer recognizes and buys products of a certain brand. They distort perceptions by leaving invisible traces in our brains (for instance by linking certain products to certain attributes or emotions). Given the hype about AI and deep learning, one could ask if such adaptive systems can be manipulated by marketing techniques just like we are seduced by them. </div><div dir="auto"><br>Good luck for your paper! </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">-J.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div><br></div><div align="left" dir="auto" style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Russ Abbott <<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com" target="_blank">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>> </div><div>Date: 3/20/21 19:51 (GMT+01:00) </div><div>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>> </div><div>Subject: [FRIAM] Draft abstract </div><div><br></div></div><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)" class="gmail_default">Hi all,</div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)" class="gmail_default">I'm planning to submit an abstract to <a href="http://www.hapoc.org/node/329" target="_blank">this conference</a>. All they want is (a) a short abstract (< 200 words) and a long abstract (< 1000 words including references). Here's my <a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vqio0TpUHfeDeqBWpr5KSJAW4h7u2YBD/view?usp=sharing" target="_blank">draft</a>. Comments/suggested improvements would be appreciated.</div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)" class="gmail_default">Thanks.</div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><font><u style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16.5px;line-height:20px"><br></u></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font><u style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16.5px;line-height:20px"> </u></font><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16.5px;line-height:24.75px"> </span>-- Russ Abbott <br>Professor, Computer Science<br>California State University, Los Angeles<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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