<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">Pieter quoted: <i>"the brain is a physical system like any other, and we have no more will to operate it in a particular way than we will our heart to beat".</i><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><b>But we do have the ability, and can "will" our heart to beat in a particular way.</b><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Not only that, we (at least some individuals in the world) can control pretty much every aspect of our "autonomous nervous system." I learned how to generate alpha waves in my brain while awake and talking. Researchers recently conducted cogent conversations with individuals in the middle of lucid dreams. Then there is all the "bio-feedback" data and practices. Hundreds of similar examples could be cited.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Just because we don't, as a general rule, does not mean we cannot.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Not saying anything in this post is an argument for free will — just that the quoted argument against free will is fatally flawed.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davewest<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div>On Fri, Apr 2, 2021, at 7:10 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style=""><div dir="ltr"><div>From a strict scientific perspective I accept that we don't have free will. I don't argue that we have free will. I accept, and I quote from the article quoted above:<br></div><div>"the brain is a physical system like any other, and we have no more will to operate it in a particular way than we will our heart to beat". But...<br></div><div><br></div><div>From how humans perceive our own actions, I assert that we do have free will of "some sorts''. Similar to some computer programs that also have free will of "some sorts". We all agree that AlphGo who beat Lee Sedol in Go does not have free will, it did exactly what the computer code instructed it to do, but it came up with creative play that the human programmers did not even know about. This is in my view also "some sorts" of free will.<br></div></div><div><br></div><div class="qt-gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="qt-gmail_attr">On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 at 14:15, Jochen Fromm <<a href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net">jofr@cas-group.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="qt-gmail_quote" style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);border-left-style:solid;border-left-width:1px;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto">Was it only 150 years ago when Charles Darwin first published 'On the Origin of Species' ? It feels longer. Interesting story from Stephen Cave<br></div><div><a href="https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/06/theres-no-such-thing-as-free-will/480750/" target="_blank">https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/06/theres-no-such-thing-as-free-will/480750/</a><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div>-J.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div></div></div><div>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br></div><div> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div> un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div> archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div></blockquote></div><div>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br></div><div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div><br></div></blockquote><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div></body></html>