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<p class="MsoNormal">Perhaps it isn’t obvious what I’m driving at. My claim is that the currencies used by different cohorts (academics, tech) are not necessarily aligned with innovation or progress. I know several academics that have eagerly sought research
topics that were not open to a large community, simply because it would make it easier to crank out similar papers and pad out their publication record, while funneling a stream of relevant citations back to them. And I know people who plainly, even proudly,
work “performance metrics” like half-baked patent applications or mentorships where they invent busywork for junior employees that also need to seek out mentors. This is not the earnest hard work of the ant. This is gaming the system via social mechanisms.
It is just a bunch of performative junk that distracts from research or from engineering things that actually work.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Marcus Daniels<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 4, 2021 11:16 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Free Willy in the Atlantic<o:p></o:p></p>
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I suppose I shouldn’t pick on academics. Patents are worse. With a patent, one prevents innovation by others and delays implementation by the “owner” whereby she loses the incentive to flesh out the details that are invariably absent
in the disclosure. The point of liberalism is to enable the cicada to keep singing, because singing is a high-order behavior and grubbing around for food is a low-order behavior. The ant has tunnel vision and is merely surviving, taking up space for no
reason other than to survive.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 4, 2021 10:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Free Willy in the Atlantic<o:p></o:p></p>
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Jochen -<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I grew up on Grimm (and Aesop, and Uncle Remus, and Kipling(thus all my "just so" stories)?) how ffffFFing GRIM! They were. A good counterpoint to the Little Red Hen/Frau Holle (Calvinist?) parables might be the "Ant and the Cicada" at least in the 18c
French Version, where there is no judgement held (necessarily) against the Grasshopper by the Ant... allowing room for diversity of values and differing objects of value (the Ant valuing the Cicada/Grasshopper's music and exchanging his *hoard* of foodstuff
in exchange for comraderie and entertainment). Some (Calvinists? Libertarians) would perhaps consider this translation an "apologistic" version, "letting the lazy/stuid Cicada off too easy". What WOULD Ayn Rand say?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>- SS<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The fable of the little red hen is unknown here in Germany, but everyone knows the fairy tales of the brothers Grimm. There is a fairy tale named "Mother Hulda" (Frau Holle) which is a parable that <span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#202122">hard
work is rewarded and laziness is punished. These fairy tales are similar to the parables in the Bible. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frau_Holle">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frau_Holle</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-J.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">-------- Original message --------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">From: <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">
thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Date: 4/4/21 05:32 (GMT+01:00) <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Free Willy in the Atlantic
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Marcus hath wroth:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="quotation"><span class="quotationchar">I know Nick once dreamed of publications out of FRIAM</span>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Nick doth reply:
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="quotation">Well, I have already gotten two publications out of writing to this list (in part). It’s a case of
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Red_Hen">little red hen</a> syndrome. Or perhaps the reverse: you all helped me and I still I ate all the bread.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Nick
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Marcus Daniels<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 3, 2021 11:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">
<friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Free Willy in the Atlantic<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Part of the model would involve finding seasonality like that. A difficult part would be building the NLP capability to generate plausible sentences from each agent type. However,
there’s a big archive to draw upon if one were to take a statistical inference approach. General dispositions would be pretty easy, I think. At least they are obvious to me. Also noteworthy is that there are classes of subconversations that I think just
has to do with demographics. For example, remember the late XYZ.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I know Nick once dreamed of publications out of FRIAM. I wonder if he’d settle for a finite state machine? If it all worked out, though, I’d have to find a replacement procrastination
activity.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 3, 2021 9:23 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Free Willy in the Atlantic<o:p></o:p></p>
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> Marcus wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I once wrote an agent model of some of my colleagues. It was a minor catharsis. If I were to write one for agents that have first names that start with the letter “S”, I’d have
a predicate that waited for a long thread to evolve, and then summarized them with a few tangential snarkier-than-thou remarks. It would be a better accomplishment to learn the deterministic agent behavior with a hidden markov model, maybe. Authorship
comes with the ability to embellish, which is maybe one appeal of ABMs. <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>So... "snarkier than thou" isn't the FriAM objective function? I'm sure I get a double-dose from having both first and last name beginning with 'S'. I should probably try reading with a different lens...
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>To be fair (to me, because, who else?) I wrote that one much earlier in the thread than it appeared. I am fairly busy on Fridays which is one of the reasons I don't weigh in often on vFriam... but whilst in the spirit of April 1, I couldn't help misreading
the original subject line. I might have taken the extra moment to trace the whole thread that followed, but I suppose I imagined everyone likely to weigh in on the thread was on vFriam beating the horse of free will with their gumflaps rather than their
touchtyping. My bad.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I *will* claim the title "more tangential than though" and maybe even "TL;DR-er than though", and as evidenced here "more self-explanatory than though".<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">Your ABMs could be rather revealing and perhaps therefore entertaining...<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Steve Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 2, 2021 1:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Free Willy in the Atlantic<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">Dave West wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Pieter quoted: <i>"the brain is a physical system like any other, and we have no more will to operate it in a particular way than we
will our heart to beat".</i></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">But we do have the ability, and can "will" our heart to beat in a particular way.</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Not only that, we (at least some individuals in the world) can control pretty much every aspect of our "autonomous nervous system."
I learned how to generate alpha waves in my brain while awake and talking. Researchers recently conducted cogent conversations with individuals in the middle of lucid dreams. Then there is all the "bio-feedback" data and practices. Hundreds of similar examples
could be cited.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Just because we don't, as a general rule, does not mean we cannot.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Not saying anything in this post is an argument for free will — just that the quoted argument against free will is fatally flawed.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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</blockquote>
<p>nahhh... it just looks like you (and the Swamis) can modify your autonomic functions and your brain waves... the fact is, given who you/they are in those circumstances, you *had* to, you couldn't have chosen to do otherwise! In fact you can't help but
*believe* you had free will and exercised it, just like *I* who am sure you *don't* have free will have no choice but to believe *that*. Anything else is *inconceivable* ! (<i>"there's that word again"</i> -Inigio Martinez)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Or at least *that* is what I choose to believe today. I wonder if I will have a choice about what I feel about all this today? Or after some more limp-noodle-beatings of the topic here?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Arg,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> - Smarg<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>PS... Don't free Willy in the Atlantic, his entire pod is in the Pacific. Was that a Trump-administration rule, that unaccompanied minor Orcas stuck in Seaworld can only be released in an ocean other than that of their origin! Happy onecet of April!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davewest</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Fri, Apr 2, 2021, at 7:10 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" id="qt">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">From a strict scientific perspective I accept that we don't have free will. I don't argue that we have free will. I accept, and I quote from the article quoted above:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">"the brain is a physical system like any other, and we have no more will to operate it in a particular way than we will our heart to beat". But...<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">From how humans perceive our own actions, I assert that we do have free will of "some sorts''. Similar to some computer programs that also have free will of "some sorts". We all
agree that AlphGo who beat Lee Sedol in Go does not have free will, it did exactly what the computer code instructed it to do, but it came up with creative play that the human programmers did not even know about. This is in my view also "some sorts" of free
will.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 at 14:15, Jochen Fromm <<a href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net">jofr@cas-group.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,
204, 204)">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Was it only 150 years ago when Charles Darwin first published 'On the Origin of Species' ? It feels longer. Interesting story from Stephen Cave<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a href="https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/06/theres-no-such-thing-as-free-will/480750/">https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/06/theres-no-such-thing-as-free-will/480750/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">-J.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6
<a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">FRIAM-COMIC
<a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">archives:
<a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<pre>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<pre>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
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