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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/4/21 12:16 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
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<p class="MsoNormal">I suppose I shouldn’t pick on academics.
Patents are worse. With a patent, one prevents innovation
by others and delays implementation by the “owner” whereby she
loses the incentive to flesh out the details that are
invariably absent in the disclosure. The point of liberalism
is to enable the cicada to keep singing, because singing is a
high-order behavior and grubbing around for food is a
low-order behavior. The ant has tunnel vision and is merely
surviving, taking up space for no reason other than to
survive.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>My post-LANL career includes to spectacular face-plants involving
someone else's "Patent Bull$hite". In both cases, "camera
arrays", one freeform (nominally planar) and the other spherical
(nominally inter-pupillary-distance-separated-eyes) which IMO were
*full* of technical holes and incompletenesses. I got sucked in
over the spirit of the technology and what it *could* be. It
took me order years to discover (in each case) that the economic
drivers behind it all had no interest in honestly advancing the
technology beyond the conceptual basis of the patents which were
circa 1995 and whose earliest precedents were as early as 1930 and
by some stretch going all the way back to the Greeks or at least
Da Vinci. I lent them whatever credibility I had (or could be
imputed by my own background, if not my actual skillset) and
helped them defend their patents (one was going up against Disney
who was "infringing") and helped them idea-monger their way into
getting bought out by a bigger fish who got gobbled by a
yet-bigger fish, leaving me with unpaid invoices standing in line
behind a long line of similar folks. My bad for being a dumb
business person. Yet, I also saw the folly and the inevitibality
of *Intellectual Property* in our world. I don't know if the
myriad white papers and opinions I wrote for them hold under the
NDAs I signed since in most cases I never received (anywhere near)
the full remuneration that was implied (but silly me, not
expressly stated in the NDAs as full contracts). <br>
</p>
<p>I would claim *virtually everything* I was doing with/for them
and even aspiring to do has been deprecated by advancements and
can *now* find academic papers from that era demonstrating that I
was far from the only one who understood the full (humbly,
"broader") implications of the technology and in fact, many
exploited it (in a non-commercial way) in exactly the ways I was
trying to help my commercial patent-holders exploit. It was their
"close to the vest" stylization that kept them from moving
forward smartly and "striking while the iron was hot"... so I
don't really feel sorry for them missing their boat, nor me
either. I just wish I'd jumped in and started swimming
confidently at the time, I might have something more than old man
stories and just so stories and anecdotes for furlongs to offer
for the experience. On the other hand, I would have just managed
to help "pave over the planet faster".. who knew that my own
(business) incompetence would turn out to be my greatest (human)
asset?</p>
<p>BTW... the grapes were sour (Aesop reference).</p>
<p>- Souze<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:BYAPR11MB38309ADCD76B802CBF307147C5789@BYAPR11MB3830.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Steve Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 4, 2021 10:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Free Willy in the Atlantic<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Jochen -<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I grew up on Grimm (and Aesop, and Uncle Remus, and
Kipling(thus all my "just so" stories)?) how ffffFFing GRIM!
They were. A good counterpoint to the Little Red Hen/Frau
Holle (Calvinist?) parables might be the "Ant and the Cicada"
at least in the 18c French Version, where there is no
judgement held (necessarily) against the Grasshopper by the
Ant... allowing room for diversity of values and differing
objects of value (the Ant valuing the Cicada/Grasshopper's
music and exchanging his *hoard* of foodstuff in exchange for
comraderie and entertainment). Some (Calvinists?
Libertarians) would perhaps consider this translation an
"apologistic" version, "letting the lazy/stuid Cicada off too
easy". What WOULD Ayn Rand say?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>- SS<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The fable of the little red hen is
unknown here in Germany, but everyone knows the fairy
tales of the brothers Grimm. There is a fairy tale named
"Mother Hulda" (Frau Holle) which is a parable that <span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;color:#202122">hard work is rewarded
and laziness is punished. These fairy tales are similar
to the parables in the Bible. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frau_Holle"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frau_Holle</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-J.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">--------
Original message --------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">From: <a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Date: 4/4/21
05:32 (GMT+01:00) <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">To: 'The
Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><friam@redfish.com></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Subject: Re:
[FRIAM] Free Willy in the Atlantic
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Marcus
hath wroth:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="quotation"><span class="quotationchar">I know Nick
once dreamed of publications out of FRIAM</span>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Nick
doth reply:
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="quotation">Well, I have already gotten two
publications out of writing to this list (in part).
It’s a case of
<a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Red_Hen"
moz-do-not-send="true">little red hen</a> syndrome. Or
perhaps the reverse: you all helped me and I still I ate
all the bread.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Nick
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Nick
Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b>
Friam
<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a>
<b>On Behalf Of
</b>Marcus Daniels<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 3, 2021 11:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Free Willy in the Atlantic<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Part
of the model would involve finding seasonality like that.
A difficult part would be building the NLP capability to
generate plausible sentences from each agent type.
However, there’s a big archive to draw upon if one were
to take a statistical inference approach. General
dispositions would be pretty easy, I think. At least
they are obvious to me. Also noteworthy is that there
are classes of subconversations that I think just has to
do with demographics. For example, remember the late XYZ.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I
know Nick once dreamed of publications out of FRIAM. I
wonder if he’d settle for a finite state machine? If it
all worked out, though, I’d have to find a replacement
procrastination activity.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b>
Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 3, 2021 9:23 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Free Willy in the Atlantic<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> Marcus
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I
once wrote an agent model of some of my colleagues. It
was a minor catharsis. If I were to write one for
agents that have first names that start with the letter
“S”, I’d have a predicate that waited for a long thread
to evolve, and then summarized them with a few
tangential snarkier-than-thou remarks. It would be a
better accomplishment to learn the deterministic agent
behavior with a hidden markov model, maybe. Authorship
comes with the ability to embellish, which is maybe one
appeal of ABMs. <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>So... "snarkier than thou" isn't the FriAM objective
function? I'm sure I get a double-dose from having both
first and last name beginning with 'S'. I should probably
try reading with a different lens...
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>To be fair (to me, because, who else?) I wrote that one
much earlier in the thread than it appeared. I am fairly
busy on Fridays which is one of the reasons I don't weigh
in often on vFriam... but whilst in the spirit of April
1, I couldn't help misreading the original subject line.
I might have taken the extra moment to trace the whole
thread that followed, but I suppose I imagined everyone
likely to weigh in on the thread was on vFriam beating the
horse of free will with their gumflaps rather than their
touchtyping. My bad.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I *will* claim the title "more tangential than though"
and maybe even "TL;DR-er than though", and as evidenced
here "more self-explanatory than though".<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">Your
ABMs could be rather revealing and perhaps therefore
entertaining...<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b>
Friam
<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a>
<b>On Behalf Of
</b>Steve Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 2, 2021 1:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Free Willy in the
Atlantic<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">Dave
West wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Pieter
quoted: <i>"the brain is a physical system like
any other, and we have no more will to operate
it in a particular way than we will our heart to
beat".</i></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">But
we do have the ability, and can "will" our heart
to beat in a particular way.</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Not
only that, we (at least some individuals in the
world) can control pretty much every aspect of our
"autonomous nervous system." I learned how to
generate alpha waves in my brain while awake and
talking. Researchers recently conducted cogent
conversations with individuals in the middle of
lucid dreams. Then there is all the "bio-feedback"
data and practices. Hundreds of similar examples
could be cited.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Just
because we don't, as a general rule, does not mean
we cannot.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Not
saying anything in this post is an argument for
free will — just that the quoted argument against
free will is fatally flawed.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>nahhh... it just looks like you (and the Swamis) can
modify your autonomic functions and your brain waves...
the fact is, given who you/they are in those
circumstances, you *had* to, you couldn't have chosen to
do otherwise! In fact you can't help but *believe* you
had free will and exercised it, just like *I* who am
sure you *don't* have free will have no choice but to
believe *that*. Anything else is *inconceivable* ! (<i>"there's
that word again"</i> -Inigio Martinez)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Or at least *that* is what I choose to believe today.
I wonder if I will have a choice about what I feel about
all this today? Or after some more limp-noodle-beatings
of the topic here?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Arg,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> - Smarg<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>PS... Don't free Willy in the Atlantic, his entire pod
is in the Pacific. Was that a Trump-administration
rule, that unaccompanied minor Orcas stuck in Seaworld
can only be released in an ocean other than that of
their origin! Happy onecet of April!<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davewest</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
Fri, Apr 2, 2021, at 7:10 AM, Pieter Steenekamp
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
id="qt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">From
a strict scientific perspective I accept that we
don't have free will. I don't argue that we have
free will. I accept, and I quote from the
article quoted above:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">"the
brain is a physical system like any other, and
we have no more will to operate it in a
particular way than we will our heart to beat".
But...<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">From
how humans perceive our own actions, I assert
that we do have free will of "some sorts''.
Similar to some computer programs that also have
free will of "some sorts". We all agree that
AlphGo who beat Lee Sedol in Go does not have
free will, it did exactly what the computer code
instructed it to do, but it came up with
creative play that the human programmers did not
even know about. This is in my view also "some
sorts" of free will.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
Fri, 2 Apr 2021 at 14:15, Jochen Fromm <<a
href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,
204, 204)">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Was
it only 150 years ago when Charles Darwin
first published 'On the Origin of Species' ?
It feels longer. Interesting story from
Stephen Cave<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a
href="https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/06/theres-no-such-thing-as-free-will/480750/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/06/theres-no-such-thing-as-free-will/480750/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
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.... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. ....
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<p class="MsoNormal"
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<pre>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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