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<p>Merle -</p>
<p>If this motley crue (self-included) *could* be
induced/lead/seduced into generating generative dialog, even on
"what generative dialog is and how to generate it", I'd be
impressed. <br>
</p>
<p>If *we* could, I would also be more hopeful for humanity's
collective vector in the phase space (x*, dx*/dt) as we approach
what I believe is a whole cascade of bifurcation points in the
adjacent possible of culture, politics, economics, technology and
in consequence (via human activity-drivers) for the
bio/cryo/hydro/atmo-sphere of this planet we (are currently almost
exclusively) constrained to. <br>
</p>
<p>I think it will take more than technological innovation to steer
our current careen into the future toward a rich, diverse, and
healthy version. And what variation of "Innovation" might we
engage in which is also sensitive and receptive to "what is",
"what has gone before", and "what is outside our current
apprehension but well within the scope of our destiny)" ?<br>
</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/16/21 4:04 PM, Merle Lefkoff
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAEmKtryyy0KJq5_BVW_tDY-FsVPhpTKr8gd341qHds+bAqwiDQ@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Hey Nick. I left
parliamentary order a long time ago! Welcome to the world of
generative dialogue.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 9:21
PM <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" lang="EN-US">
<div class="gmail-m_-5035062382403634038WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">First rule of parliamentary order:
You do not get to call the question in the same speech
in which you offer comment. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">You are out of order. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">(};-)]</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div style="border-style:solid none
none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Merle Lefkoff<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 15, 2021 4:41 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [FRIAM] Fwd: A Theory of (Almost)
Everything - IEEE Spectrum</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">I'm afraid
I have to bail from this stream because it causes
me to question once more how people in the West
get educated. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in
0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Pieter,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I meant the “has to be” a
bit ironically. The sound of an ugly fact
puncturing a beautiful theory. Psssssst! </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If I were to believe that
populations were rising, that copper use was
rising, that copper supplies were flat or
dwindling, why would I not expect copper
prices to be rising? </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Which of my assumptions
is wrong. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Or is it your expectation
that we will develop a plastic with the
conductive properties of copper? </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div style="border-style:solid none
none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Pieter Steenekamp<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 15, 2021 1:03
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] A Theory of
(Almost) Everything - IEEE Spectrum</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick,<br>
<br>
I'm not with you, what HAS to be wrong?<br>
<br>
It's impossible to predict the future,
anything could happen. I'm particularly
attracted to the views of David Deutsch. I
quote from his <a
href="https://www.thebeginningofinfinity.com/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.thebeginningofinfinity.com/</a>
:<br>
" <span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(58,58,58);border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0in">The
resulting stream of ever-improving
explanations has potentially <b>infinite
reach</b>: we are subject only to the
laws of physics, and they impose no
upper limit to what we can eventually
understand, control, and achieve.</span>
"<br>
<br>
Life on earth is good and is getting
better and better for all of us. Sure, a
disaster could strike, nothing is
inevitable, but I can see no reason why
the progress we have made HAS to stop.
Why?</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, 15 Apr 2021
at 20:11, <<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none
none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in
0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Pieter,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">That just HAS to
be wrong. What am I missing, here?
NOT a rhetorical question. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Does anybody
know, in orders of magnitude, the
relation between the potential
rooftop gain and the total energy
needs of a place like Santa Fe?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">N</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div style="border-style:solid none
none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b>
Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Pieter
Steenekamp<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 15,
2021 11:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning
Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] A
Theory of (Almost) Everything -
IEEE Spectrum</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yeah, just like
we were seriously running out of
stuff in 1980<br>
<a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon%E2%80%93Ehrlich_wager"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon%E2%80%93Ehrlich_wager</a><br>
But of course, it's
different this time around</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, 15
Apr 2021 at 19:41, Merle Lefkoff
<<a
href="mailto:merlelefkoff@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">merlelefkoff@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none
none none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in
0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt
4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Nick,
I think we have an energy
supply problem. We don't
have enough stuff left in
the ground to dig up to
supply our technology much
longer at a price anyone
can afford. I have a
colleague who has
calculated that we will
run out of copper in three
years, as just one
example. My understanding
is that copper wire
conducts most of our
electricity. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu,
Apr 15, 2021 at 11:17 AM
<<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-style:none none
none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in
0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt
4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Merle,
and all, </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">A
naïve question: Do we
have an energy supply
problem or do we have an
energy distribution
problem? For starters,
let there be a solar
collector on the roof of
every house in santa fe,
roughly the area of the
roof (roofly the area of
the rough?) . Assuming
energy were entirely
miscible, what
proportion of the total
energy needs (except
food, of course) of
Santa Feans would that
generate. I assume
hundreds of percents,
right? </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">N</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick
Thompson</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div
style="border-style:solid
none
none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b>
Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Merle
Lefkoff<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday,
April 15, 2021 10:51
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday
Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee
Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[FRIAM] A Theory of
(Almost) Everything -
IEEE Spectrum</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Almost, but not quite, Jochen.
He doesn't know
about embodied
energy. A motor
car has an
embodied energy
contents of 20
800k kWh, while
an electric
car's embodied
energy amounts
to 34 700 kWh.
Perhaps if he
knew this he
wouldn't be so
optimistic. We
are racing
toward our doom.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at
10:06 AM Jochen
Fromm <<a
href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-style:none
none none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in
0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt
0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Interesting
IEEE podcast: an
interview with <span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black;background-color:white;background-position:initial
initial;background-repeat:initial initial">Václav Smil, who wrote a book
about "Grand
Transitions",
similar to "</span>The
Major
Transitions in
Evolution" from
John Maynard
Smith and Eörs
Szathmáry<span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black;background-color:white;background-position:initial
initial;background-repeat:initial initial"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://spectrum.ieee.org/podcast/geek-life/history/a-theory-of-almost-everything"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://spectrum.ieee.org/podcast/geek-life/history/a-theory-of-almost-everything</a></p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">-J.</p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br
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</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Merle
Lefkoff, Ph.D.<br>
Center for
Emergent
Diplomacy<br>
<a
href="http://emergentdiplomacy.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">emergentdiplomacy.org</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Santa
Fe, New
Mexico, USA</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><br>
mobile: (303)
859-5609<br>
skype:
merle.lelfkoff2</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">twitter:
@merle110</p>
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class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Merle
Lefkoff, Ph.D.<br>
Center for
Emergent
Diplomacy<br>
<a
href="http://emergentdiplomacy.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">emergentdiplomacy.org</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Santa
Fe, New
Mexico, USA</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><br>
mobile: (303)
859-5609<br>
skype:
merle.lelfkoff2</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">twitter:
@merle110</p>
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<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Merle Lefkoff,
Ph.D.<br>
Center for Emergent Diplomacy<br>
<a
href="http://emergentdiplomacy.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">emergentdiplomacy.org</a></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Santa Fe, New
Mexico, USA</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
mobile: (303) 859-5609<br>
skype: merle.lelfkoff2</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">twitter:
@merle110</p>
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- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>
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<div>Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.<br>
Center for Emergent Diplomacy<br>
<a href="http://emergentdiplomacy.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">emergentdiplomacy.org</a></div>
<div>Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA</div>
<div><br>
mobile: (303) 859-5609<br>
skype: merle.lelfkoff2<br>
</div>
<div>twitter: @merle110<br>
</div>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a>
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