<div dir="ltr"><i>"
Why would a poor man sire significantly fewer children than a rich man? "<br></i><br>Good question, maybe my assumption is wrong? <br><br>It's not so much about the siring of the children as about the successful raising of many children in the past. <br>My assumption is based on the fact that food was scarce and relatively expensive. Poor families' children were malnutritioned and died more easily from many types of illnesses. I'd love to find numbers to see if this is true or false. I did a quick google search and found nothing.<br><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 at 21:43, Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 4/24/21 12:37 PM, Pieter Steenekamp
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Up to maybe hundred years ago, a rich man could
sire and raise ten children or more and many poor men none or at
the most a few.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Why would a poor man sire significantly fewer children than a
rich man? Polygamy might have tipped the balance of available
mates in favor of the rich and powerful, but otherwise war and
other violence was tipping the balance toward every man having an
opportunity to mate (assuming significant levels of monogamy).
Nutrition and health care (and stressors) might reduce the number
of children a woman could (live) birth and raise to reproductive
age, but I don't think the bias is less than 2:1 on average?</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"> The key point is that genetic differences
influenced the number of descendants a person had with the
result that the conditions were there for natural selection and
undoubtedly human beings evolved. <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Does this mean you believe that wealth was a direct correlation
to some genetic feature? Within strict class and even more
acutely, blue-blood nobility/caste reproductive contexts, there is
*some* correlation, but I think the unrecognized effects of
over-inbreeding did more harm than good?</p>
<p>I am willing to believe that high aggression may still have been
selected for reproductively up into the industrial age, but I
think that got sublimated into wealth and power collection more
than reproductive fecundity (though I grant up to 2:1 advantage
*through* acquired wealth). e.g <a href="http://malyarchuk-bor.narod.ru/olderfiles/1/RJG_3_07.pdf" target="_blank">Genghis
hisself</a><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Today however, genetic differences between people
have very small influence on the number of their descendants
so the conditions are very weak for natural selection. I conjure
that if natural selection is happening today it is very
small, maybe negligible? <br>
But if you look beyond natural selection and include gene
editing, humans can of course evolve. I would be very surprised
if there are not already some filthy rich people doing it in
secret. <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>With the ?8.6B? people on this planet, I suspect "if we can,
someone is/has/will". The previously linked article on Texas
Ranchers cloning prize Bucks suggests to me that up to the
practical challenges imposed by broad ethical concerns that human
cloning has to be (nearly) as easy. <br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p><a href="https://www.deerassociation.com/action-alert-texas-captive-deer-cloning-h-b-1781/" target="_blank">https://www.deerassociation.com/action-alert-texas-captive-deer-cloning-h-b-1781/</a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Deer-Clone-4542735.php" target="_blank">https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Deer-Clone-4542735.php</a></p>
</blockquote>
<p>and we DO have the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C3%ABlism" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">Raëlians</span></a>
and <a href="http://www.clonaid.com/" target="_blank">Clonaid.</a></p>
<blockquote>
<p><a href="https://www.statnews.com/2016/07/05/dolly-cloning-sheep-anniversary/" target="_blank">https://www.statnews.com/2016/07/05/dolly-cloning-sheep-anniversary/</a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/21/human-reproductive-cloning-curious-incident-of-the-dog-in-the-night-time/" target="_blank">https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/21/human-reproductive-cloning-curious-incident-of-the-dog-in-the-night-time/</a></p>
</blockquote>
<p>my kids are too much like me already, we can barely get along as
it is!<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 at 20:32,
Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" target="_blank">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>DaveW -</p>
<p>I think the eugenics movement(s) of the last century as
well as the many clan structures in indigenous peoples and
royal bloodlines throughout history have been structured
with the aspiration of either inducing genetic drift in a
desired direction, or (in the case of clan structures and
incest taboos) perhaps mute it's worst outcomes.</p>
<p>The divergence of Neandertalis/Devonisis/Sapiens presumed
to have happened hundreds of thousands of years ago and
the reconvergence/subsumption roughly 40,000 years ago
seem to represent the most *significant* evolution we know
of among "modern" humans... The time-scales I consider
in your questoin are on the order of hundreds of years,
not tens or hundreds of thousands. That alone suggests
to me that we will not see anything we can measure as
"evolution". The divergence of traits we identify as
"race" seem to have happened over tens of thousands of
years as well. From our experience with domestic animal
breeding, we probably have (refer to Eugenics literature)
some sense of how many generations it would take us to
"breed in" or "breed out" various traits. <br>
</p>
<p><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/Homo_lineage_2017update.svg/320px-Homo_lineage_2017update.svg.png"></p>
<p>As Marcus and other technophile/posthumanist proponents
have indicated, it seems that germline modification (e.g.
CRISPR) is likely to become acutely more significant (for
the first world?) than any natural "drift", much less
evolution by natural selection.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>And then all the ways we might entirely stunt/block
evolution:</p>
<p>
<a href="https://www.huffpost.com/entry/texas-rancher-cloned-deer-lawmakers-want-legalize_n_607ef3e0e4b03c18bc29fdd2" target="_blank">https://www.huffpost.com/entry/texas-rancher-cloned-deer-lawmakers-want-legalize_n_607ef3e0e4b03c18bc29fdd2</a></p>
<p>Who knew we had come this far from <a href="https://dolly.roslin.ed.ac.uk/facts/the-life-of-dolly/index.html" target="_blank">Dolly</a>?</p>
<p>Can species NOT involved in deliberate breeding programs
(e.g. wild things) evolve quickly enough to stay ahead of
the anthropogenic changes afoot? I think the simple
answer is "hell yes!" but the more interesting relevant
answer is sadly more like "barely" or "probably not
hardly" if we are talking about our favorite or photogenic
species (large mammals, colorful birds, ... in
particular).</p>
<p>For better or worse, the large mammal strategies
including high mass/surface ratios also yield longer
dependency and reproductive lags, so while the bacteria
might achieve population doubling in tens of minutes,
Whales, Elephants, Polar Bears and Humans have
reproductive periods on the order of decades. <br>
</p>
<p>I think the Big Green Lie thread is asking if human
*cultural* or *social* evolution can be quick enough to
avert the disasters we think (some of us) we see looming
on the near horizon. A very specific (engineered?)
pandemic might yield a very acute selection pressure. <br>
</p>
<p>In the wild, maybe in the niche areas where conditions
are going out of human survival range (e.g. dewpoint too
high for human sweat-cooling to maintain a temperature
below the threshold for breakdown of enzymes (and other
metabolic macromolecules) will uncover/select-out those
with metabolisms more able to skirt that hairy edge...
but how many generations of that kind of selection
(without significant mixing with other populations) would
be required to see a coherent gene pool reflecting that
survival trait? And with modern
knowledge/travel/technology, the chances of humans staying
put and enduring those conditions and NOT
creating/importing some form of mechanical/chemical
refrigeration (or just moving into pit-houses coupled to
the much lower temperature earth?)</p>
<p>I'm definitely not going to depend on it!</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
On 4/24/21 10:50 AM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Well, it’s obviously both/and with
trade-offs between. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Please see attached. It’s short.
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Merle Lefkoff<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 23, 2021 9:21 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] semi-idle question</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Dave, I
found this in Wikipedia: "</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(32,33,34)">The
social brain hypothesis was proposed by
British anthropologist </span><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Dunbar" title="Robin Dunbar" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(6,69,173);text-decoration:none">Robin
Dunbar</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(32,33,34)">,
who argues that human intelligence did not
evolve primarily as a means to solve
ecological problems, but rather as a means of
surviving and reproducing in large and complex
social groups."</span><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(32,33,34)">That
might explain why we are now leading our
species off the cliff. </span><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 7:12 AM
Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" target="_blank">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal">Can human beings evolve?<br>
<br>
Was reading about Pepper Moths in England during
the Industrial Revolution. (population genetics)<br>
<br>
Population was white with dark spots and the
occasional dark colored moth was easy prey.<br>
Pollution killed lichen and caused the trees
(moth's habitat) to be covered in soot, turning
them dark.<br>
Population of black moths went from 2% in 1848 to
95% by 1895.<br>
<br>
Is is possible for humans to evolve in response to
climate change in a similar way? more general
prevalence of melanin, craving for spicy hot food?<br>
<br>
Of course moths used many generations to achieve
their change and their lifespan is a fraction of a
humans, so extinction is more likely than
adaptation. But, is it at least possible in
principle?<br>
<br>
davew<br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Merle Lefkoff,
Ph.D.<br>
Center for Emergent Diplomacy<br>
<a href="http://emergentdiplomacy.org" target="_blank">emergentdiplomacy.org</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Santa Fe, New
Mexico, USA</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
mobile: (303) 859-5609<br>
skype: merle.lelfkoff2</p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">twitter:
@merle110</p>
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