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<p>Paraphrasing Larry McMurtry's fur-trapping duo as they are
leaving their favorite valley at the end of the season with their
pack mules (too lightly) loaded with Beaver Pelts:</p>
<p>"remember when we used to come here 20 years ago, we could trap
100 beaver a day from this valley, now it seems it takes a whole
week to take that many! I wonder where they all went?"</p>
<p>A friend commented recently that if we had "unlimited" free
energy, we would just make our strip mines 10 times as deep and
100 times as wide.</p>
<p>I like to consider the <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.islandone.org/LEOBiblio/SETI1.HTM">Dyson Sphere</a>
as an edge/extreme case of what we could/might do to optimize the
exploitation of the free energy in our solar system. I
particularly like that Dyson conjured it in a thought experiment
of one way to search for extra-terrestial (extra-solar)
civilizations. If Elon Musk has a skunkworks and
nanotech/antimatter project underway it seems conceivable that
such a Dyson Sphere could be constructed in a generation or
three. And then what? What would we exploit then? Wait for
Sol to go supernova and somehow build multiple shells to buffer,
absorb, re-emit that energy on a time-scale more suitable to
carbon-based life? Or become postCarbon, not just postHuman?<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/24/21 10:04 AM, cody dooderson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAEddvG02zhiBn1T6RenD8YqvokVaAGU6fE_mWHh2MWg51vqstg@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">"the hover crafts are cool, but the air is so
putrid" -Murder Mike from Run the Jewels. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
As the saying goes "with great power comes great
responsibility". I don't think anyone could argue that our
technologies don't have a dark destructive side. I find it hard
to think of any technology that doesn't cause some harmful side
effect when it becomes "commercially viable". For instance
antibiotics are amazing, until you inadvertantly make multi
resistant staph. Nuclear power can power all of the cities, and
also destroy them. Etc...
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"> I mostly agree with technophobics about using
just enough of the right technology, but no more. </div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:06 AM
Pieter Steenekamp <<a
href="mailto:pieters@randcontrols.co.za"
moz-do-not-send="true">pieters@randcontrols.co.za</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">I understand the concerns of the supporters of
Brightgreenlies but I don't necessarily agree with their
solutions.<br>
<br>
Humanity has causes and is still causing huge destruction to
other life on Mother Earth. It is good to have activists for
a Greener future. I support seeking a win-win solution for
all of us, from microbes to all multicellular species,
including humans.<br>
<br>
On a personal level it's not always easy. For example, I'm
morally against eating meat. I just consider it wrong to
raise animals in factories where they don't seem to enjoy
any happiness and then to kill them to eat them. But when I
was young I didn't think about it and became a good
carnivore. I was raised on a farm where we had meat on
the table for three meals every day. It's very difficult for
me now in my old age to be a vegetarian without cheating. My
friends call me an undercover vegetarian.<br>
<br>
For me the solutions are based on seeking ways to achieve
both emotional and material abundance and restoring natural
eco systems. The first place in this case is not to
compromise. IMO there are plenty reasons for optimism that:<br>
a) With microble gene editing we can feed the world from
relative very small ponds, <br>
b) have can have abundant cheap, clean and safe nuclear
energy, <br>
c) use this desalinate water to have abundant fresh water,<br>
d) develop carbon based materials to make exotic stuff from
extracting carbon from the atmosphere and<br>
e) restore the natural eco systems on earth<br>
and so on and so on. My argument is to embrace technology
for solutions. <br>
<br>
My optimism could prove false, I'm not predicting the
future, but I really don't think there is a viable option to
keep 7 billion humans from starvation and saving the
environment without turning to technology. We have grown to
7 billion in non sustainable and harmful to the ecology
ways. Turning to non-technological sustainable ways will
just not support 7 billion people on earth. But, I might be
wrong, so my view is that provided that it can support the
current world population, I will be very happy to live in a
perma-culture based sustainable world. I can see that the
quality of life could be much higher on average for all than
what it is now. <br>
<br>
If we are doomed we are doomed, but I'd like to be part of
the movement that actively seeks and supports solutions for
a better future for all Life on Mother Earth.<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 at
22:14, Marcus Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As far as meat eating goes, three
solutions come to mind 1) make it too expensive, 2)
find treatments that reprogram the appetite, and 3)
come up with substitutes, e.g. impossible burger.
Catastrophes would help with #1. They will surely
come. The general issue with hedonism can probably
be addressed by #2 (e.g. pharmaceuticals). </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Gosh, people didn’t like masks,
wait until you take their potato chips and porn
away. It just isn’t going to happen that people
decide to stop going to work and tend to their
organic garden instead. I don’t at any level want
to be a luddite. No, anything else. Let’s shoot
for underground cities on Mars, reprogram the genes
of children to be able to endure heat, etc.
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of
</b>Steve Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 23, 2021 12:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] the Big (Bright)
Green Lie</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p>Merle -</p>
<p>Thanks for commenting on the film-maker: A good
background on Julia and the documentary:</p>
<p> <a
href="https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/adv/article-how-canadian-filmmaker-and-environmentalist-julia-barnes-decided-to/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/adv/article-how-canadian-filmmaker-and-environmentalist-julia-barnes-decided-to/</a></p>
<p>I didn't realize it just premiered on
yesterEarthDay.</p>
<p>The point of my anecdote about Jensen is that I
don't think *he* carries the baggage, but it *does*
follow him around! Which is always the problem
with popular movements, they are, well... Popular!
in the best and worse sense of the term.</p>
<p>I feel blessed to have found Jensen's works early
(by some measure), it has helped keep me from
falling into the TechnoUtopian basin of attraction
entirely. The complex (precessing figure-eights
for the most part) orbits I *do* follow in this
topic can be very unnerving (one day looking to Elon
Musk or Bill Gates or the latest advancement in
Solid State Battery Tech or the Stock Market's
euphoria around Green Tech, etc. and the next day
noticing the unintended (and un-tended-to) side
effects of the last round of "technical fixes to
non-technical problems").</p>
<p>- Steve</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 4/23/21 1:38 PM, Merle
Lefkoff wrote: </p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Thanks
Steve. I'm still processing and appreciate
knowledgeable and thoughtful feedback. I'm
very interested in Julia and her efforts (I
think she's 25), which seems to me to add
authenticity to the quest for what the hell
to do next. And I agree that Derrick has a
lot of baggage and is a drawback. Julia
decided to make the movie after she read the
book. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at
1:28 PM Steve Smith <<a
href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in
6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p>Merle -</p>
<p>I don't know how much traction you will get
amongst this group of radical technophiles
(self sometimes included). Unfortunately I
think that is one of the most effective
modes of those promoting the Big (Green) Lie
(appealing to technophilic/technoutopic
sentiments for "full speed ahead").
Another is (also unfortunately) to recruit
the conspiracy nut types to (ab)use this
line of thinking to fuel their own
anti-human agendas. In the moment it looks
like a narrow ridge to walk down. Maybe "the
Donald" has done us a service with *his* Big
Lie, to attune us to our susceptibility to
"Big Lies"?</p>
<p>I have followed Derrick Jensen from early
on (when he published <a
href="https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hres109/BILLS-116hres109ih.pdf"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">
Language Older than Words</a>) and have a
strong sympathy for what he is oft accused
of as "Anarcho-Primitivism". This movie
(and the book) Bright Green Lies is, in my
estimation "not wrong" in most if not all of
it's positions. But that is not enough.</p>
<p>I used to be part of a regular community
centered around Jensen but I had to drop
out, not because of Jensen's ideas or
actions, but because the radical fringe that
was drawn there couldn't hold two impossible
thoughts in their heads/hearts at the same
time. There was (in my opinion) a strong
draw to a sort of "revenge aesthetic" among
the more radical who were indulging in the
most extreme form of your own (you
introduced us to it most of a year ago)
<i>Cassandrafreude</i>. They elevated
Jensen to the prophet of a Cult of
Personality, somewhat against his will... I
haven't tracked this lately but the
centroids of these movements implied by the
likes of Jensen, Paul Hawken, Bill McKibben
have entered mainstream and may ultimately
represent the current phase of the evolution
of the *first world's*
post-capitalist/climate-change aesthetic.</p>
<p>So I believe that an important aspect of
YOUR work is evolving to include not just
exposing the Big (Green) Lies we tell
ourselves, but healing the implicit rifts
growing within the diverse coalition of
progressive/humanist/environmentalists/pan-somethingists
or helping them/us to build a healthy
ecosystem of somewhat diverse and often
competing *strategies* for achieving a
common *stated* goal.
</p>
<p>The most critical aspect of
BrightGreenLies' story for me is that it is
self-contradictory to recruit (or rebuild) a
hyper-capitalistic profit-centric
mega-industrial framework to "rescue us"
from the trajectory that is fundamentally
part of their model of their mere
existence. That is not to say that I have
a "better plan" really (nor do I endorse
many of those implied by BrightGreenLies),
but I definitely accept that if the likes of
Elon Musk or (even) Bill Gates ends up
"rescuing" us from the slow-moving disaster
(aka "<a
href="https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2020/02/william-gibson-apocalypse-it-s-been-happening-least-100-years"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">Jackpot</a>" in
Bill Gibson's vernacular) we are in, it will
only be a delay or divergence from the most
obvious, most imminent of disasters we are
bearing down on. I believe (but cannot
begin to prove) that we are at the beginning
of a cascade of birfurcations and that
whatever is on the "other side" of that is
going to look *radically* different from
what we live with now (from first to third
world, inclusive). I highly doubt *all* of
the Utopian (and most of the Dystopian)
visions we tend to dwell on with Gibson's
particular version being only one zany
example juxtaposed maybe with that of
Miller's "<a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Canticle_for_Leibowitz"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">A Canticle for
Leibowitz</a>".</p>
<p>I believe it is critically hard to
simultaneously optimize one's
local/personal/individualistic circumstance
while also trying to optimize a global
measure as well. I don't think we are
particularly well wired for this... but it
IS our ability to abstract and language and
cognize which *might* allow us to evolve our
*sociopoliticaleconomic* (nod to DaveW)
selves off of the family of trajectories we
have set ourselves upon (and double down
with movements *like* the Big Green LIe).
There are folks with the
intellectual/abstractional/synthetic
capability here to participate in that
IMO, but finding the right perspective and
a place to obtain traction to do so remains
an unsolved problem.</p>
<p>For better or worse, I believe movements
like <a href="https://350.org/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">
McKibben's</a> and <a
href="https://www.drawdown.org/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">Hawkins' </a>
and <a
href="https://www.gatesfoundation.org/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">Gates</a>' and <a
href="https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hres109/BILLS-116hres109ih.pdf"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">
Sanders'/AOC</a> are perhaps necessary
excursions from what to the "enlightened"
might feel is a "shortest path". I want to
invoke another thread here with Stephen's
"Least Action Path" conception, but in this
arbitrarily high dimensional space of "human
endeavor" convolved with the
"biocryoatmogeospherical" space with which
we are co-evolving (again nod to DaveW)
sociopolitcaleconomicspiritually.</p>
<p>I hope your attempt here (and elsewhere) to
harness "the likes of us" or more
importantly to get us to "harness ourselves"
(there's an image,a corrolary to "hoisting
oneself on one's own petard"?)</p>
<p>Carry On (while I Rattle On)!</p>
<p> -Steve</p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">I'd
like to start a new stream for
those interested, but first you
have to watch this film: </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><a
href="https://www.brightgreenlies.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.brightgreenlies.com</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Merle
Lefkoff, Ph.D.<br>
Center for Emergent
Diplomacy<br>
<a
href="http://emergentdiplomacy.org"
target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">emergentdiplomacy.org</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Santa
Fe, New Mexico, USA</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
mobile: (303)
859-5609<br>
skype:
merle.lelfkoff2</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">twitter:
@merle110</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- </p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Merle
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Center for Emergent Diplomacy<br>
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rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">emergentdiplomacy.org</a></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Santa Fe, New
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