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<p>I have a friend who did a long stint in Ghana with the Peace
Corps and contracted Malaria during that time and was quite
consumed by it by the time he chose to return to the states. He
reported (when Hydroxychloroquine came up as a possible remedy for
COVID) that he went through a number of high dose courses over
(many?) months and while it did help him significantly beat it
down, it was not without severe side effects (at those doses) and
he *personally* believed that while it was a likely candidate for
helping with a wild-card virus like COVID-19 that it was a risky
thing to prescribe/use indiscriminately, if not for the health of
the patient, for the squeeze on the supply for the myriad other
uses it IS highly vetted for in the third world. He seemed to
believe that if COVID-19 demand took more than a minimal number of
doses off the 3rd world supply (or raised the price), the net
result would be not-a-good-thing by humanitarian standards. <br>
</p>
<p>If SoAfrica, for example, boosted Quercetin production to meet
your presumed need for broad use there, then it may well be a good
thing if not taken in the doses that my friend had to take
(apparently) to beat Malaria down. He believe he still has
residual effects from both Malaria (the illness) and
Hyrdorxychloroquine (the cure) and wants to believe that he is
overall better for having taken it, but mostly because he wants to
believe that the docs were "doing their best", even if the cure
did more damage than the illness. <br>
</p>
<p>With that background I didn't have a problem with Trump taking
the drug or even acknowledging it *might* be helpful, but I
interpreted his endorsement as implying a "miracle cure" whilst
paradoxically trying to dismiss any worries about the Virus itself
and the lack of positive evidence the it was effective and the
lack of negative evidence that the side-effects may be worse than
the illness it was intended to relieve. His schtick on the topic
was, for lack of a better term, "very Trumpian". That does not
mean he was *dead wrong* about hydroxychloroquine... but imagine
if he'd decided to dump all the support that went to vaccines into
boosting production/delivery of hydroxychloroquine? <br>
</p>
<p>Maybe South Africa will be a testbed for that strategy? Do you
have any idea how extensively Quercetin is being used for COVID in
South Africa? Do you know if it is also used as a
general-purpose anti-viral for other viruses (as it apparently is
in more equatorial regions) like Malaria. I just (re)read your
post and realized you said "natural, over the counter" so it
sounds like neither high-doses nor widely *prescribed* though
maybe widely heralded/promoted? <br>
</p>
<p>In any case, I hope that your over-the-counter wards are helpful
to you and yours. I'm an anecdotal fan of Zinc/C for helping me
with at least the symptoms of cold/flu even though I generally
eschew all supplements/medication (my Luddite thing). I suppose
I might dose with those if I had COVID symptoms or exposure...
and assuming your Quercetin is low dose, maybe even that, as long
as it didn't line Donald Trump's pockets of course... <br>
</p>
<p>As inefficient as it is for every country/region to have a
modesty different approach to a pandemic like this, I'm not
inclined to vilify those who ended up "guessing wrong". It is
easy to armchair quarterback (in hindsight) the decisions made in
other regions of the world with significantly different
circumstances. I'm guessing (but don't know) that South Africa's
infection and death rates may be closer to Australia than India?
I also don't know if your lack of vaccines is a global supply
problem, a government policy to not pursue them as heavily, or
some unexplained coincidence? <br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/6/21 2:23 PM, Pieter Steenekamp
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPerSO+i5NzGW8zbhKTYKHVgQV2nkop-aDNFDj6182JfcfUqDg@mail.gmail.com">
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<div><b><i><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif"> is it true
that the matter simply stands with the Hah-vud studies
retracted, and nothing more said? That doesn’t seem
right.<br>
</font></i></b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
I just don't know.<br>
<br>
I speculated that the topic was just way too politicized to get
to the bottom of it without spending serious time and effort on
it and I chose not to do that. <br>
<br>
On a personal note, we don't yet have vaccinations in South
Africa, my wife and I are each having daily doses of Quercetin,
a natural over-the-counter version of
Hydroxychloroquine, and vitamin D and Zinc and a couple of other
immune boosters too. <br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 21:46,
<<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" lang="EN-US">
<div class="gmail-m_5609060911828374488WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks, Pieter, </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Interesting. As somebody who has
followed the research, is it true that the matter simply
stands with the Hah-vud studies retracted, and nothing
more said? That doesn’t seem right. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Pieter Steenekamp<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 6, 2021 1:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] FW: Covid-Lancet-PART-2
(002).doc</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">I'm not
particularly fond of Donald Trump, but the elephant in
the room is that Hydroxychloroquine became well-known
after Trump advocated it. At the time I followed and
researched it a bit and I came to the conclusion that
both the mainstream media and the medical industry
were against Hydroxychloroquine mainly because Trump
actively advocated it. The Lancet saga certainly did
not influence me to change that conclusion.<br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 19:52,
Frank Wimberly <<a
href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in
6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">This
does not seem interesting to me. The vaccines
have been demonstrated to be effective and safe to
very large degrees based on many millions of
inoculations. Why should I care about some
suspect studies with small n.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, May 6, 2021, 11:33 AM
<<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in
6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Phellow Phriammers,
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have noted that most of
what I have written here of late has been
ignored, and that’s ok, actually. Usually,
it is the possibility that you MIGHT read
what I write that keeps me writing and,
behaviorist to the last, writing is what I
need to do in order to think. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But this situation is
different. I really don’t know what to
think about <a
href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Dragan-Pavlovic-4"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Pavlovic’s</a>
paper. There may have been some trouble
with the cloud version, so I have attached
it to this message. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So, this is a case where
I really need some help. I realize that you
are all engaged in this excellent
correspondence about UBI, which has revealed
all sorts of “-ists” that I never thought
were alive and well in the world, let alone
in this group. I would not interfere with
that for a second. But, could a few of you
take a look at his <a
href="https://1drv.ms/w/s!AptIKbsAd7gjllccpq9yXXQ4hb2N?e=HCzjaV"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">paper</a>
(very short, a commentary, actually). I
think he is actually a candidate for this
group. He is an MD, Phd, anaesthesiologist,
retired in Paris, who has participated in
hundreds of scientific papers, who is
passionate ( I worry, perhaps sometimes a
bit too passionate) about dozens of
different things and suspicious of
everything. He wants, for instance, to dig a
gigantic tunnel to bring large ships
directly from the danube to the
Mediterranean. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I, of course, live in a
bubble, but I don’t like to have that fact
thrust in my face as powerfully as when he
reveals to me that the two HAAA=VUD papers
denouncing Chloquoroquine were retracted a
year ago, and I never found out. I can’t
get any sense of whether there has been any
attempt to revive them or to redo the
original clinical study that suggested HCQ’s
efficacy against CoVid. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Any little bit of help
you could give me would be great. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in
0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>
<<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 5, 2021 9:48
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group' <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Prof David West' <<a
href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Covid-Lancet-PART-2
(002).doc</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p>Dear Colleagues, </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I attach a <a
href="https://1drv.ms/w/s!AptIKbsAd7gjllccpq9yXXQ4hb2N?e=HCzjaV"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">paper</a>
written by an internet acquaintance I made
some years back, Dragan Pavlovic. I am
sending it along for two reasons. First, it
reveals (to me, at least) that the two
negative studies on Hydroxychloroquine use
in SARS-CoVid-19 treatment were based on
unverified data and were withdrawn by their
authors almost immediately. (Have the rest
of you known this for the last year and not
told me? I cannot believe, after we
pilloried poor Dave for advocating for it,
that he has not gloated about it. ) Second,
Pavlovic raises the intension/extension
distinction in the context of the
interpretation of scientific results and
also questions Randomized Control Trials as
the "Gold Standard" for discovery. Thus, I
think he is a kindred spirit, being a bit of
a grumpy contrarian like many of us here. I
have promised to forward any comments you
make to him, so be polite but speak truth.
</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Thanks, </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Nick Nicholas Thompson</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of
Ethology and Psychology</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Clark University</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
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