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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/6/21 3:02 PM, Pieter Steenekamp
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPerSOJjSnB0BNCvDKbDt3avR1n0ZWi+bQT1_3aAW4t_V4Ejqw@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">I know I run the risk of responses like
"it's Pollyanna, oh sorry I mean Pieter, again", but I'll take
the risk and share the link with the speculation about
technological progress with mRNA vaccines that will end
pandemics like covid.<br>
<a
href="https://reason.com/video/2021/05/06/why-covid-19-may-be-the-last-pandemic/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://reason.com/video/2021/05/06/why-covid-19-may-be-the-last-pandemic/</a>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>The inner-antagonist to my inner Luddite *wants* very much to
believe this could be true, the tech has been evolving so quickly
on this front I haven't even taken the time/effort to ask my
Virologist (Flavi not Corona) daughter about these
assertions/speculations. <br>
</p>
<p>My growls about hypertechno-philic/utopian things are maybe
aggravated by the fact that I was once very much in that camp
(there is one more judgemental about smoking than a former
smoker?). I really did (want to?) believe that we could outrun
the crashing wave of unintended consequences collapsing behind us
(if we dared look in our rear view mirrors) from our *previous*
techno-solutions. <br>
</p>
<p>I'm not trying to predict, for example, that there will be any
specific unintended consequences of widespread advanced mRNA
vaccines being developed maybe specifically *because* we had a
COVID pandemic in 2020 (did COVID do us a solid by threatening us
so relatively (existentially) mildly?). I DO accept Glen's point
(riffed off Dave's question) that techno-cultural evolution is a
valid way to adapt (and likely the dominant one?) to a (wildly?)
changing biosphere (and/or climate-sphere). I just can't let go
of my suspicion (bias, paranoia?) that it is so much easier to
ignore unknown risks than it is to accept/face the known ones,
that we are literally constantly Red Queening our way along,
thinking we are getting aheader and aheader when in some ways we
are doing perhaps just the opposite. <br>
</p>
<p> I appreciate some of the quantitative facts that come with the
likes of Pinker or Kotler/Diamandis (Abundance) and have a hard
time not acknowledging the miracles of modern medicine, food
production, energy distribution HAVE raised the quality of life
for many if not most in this world. But I'm not sure that the
consequences (exponential population growth, widespread species
collapse, deforestation, ocean acidification, climate change) are
balanced by that good. I sense that the built in systemic delays
are such that by the time we notice a consequence of any one of
these things that we are too invested in the cause to acknowledge
the effect, and in some cases (Greenland Ice Sheet anyone?) we may
well be past tipping points *even if* we could abruptly blunt the
drivers acutely.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPerSOJjSnB0BNCvDKbDt3avR1n0ZWi+bQT1_3aAW4t_V4Ejqw@mail.gmail.com"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 22:34,
<<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" lang="EN-US">
<div class="gmail-m_-3266354284089082973WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks, Peiter, </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">At 83, we are fully vaccinated, and
although we have changed our behavior very little, we
breath easier. You have that to look forward to. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nic</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Pieter Steenekamp<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 6, 2021 2:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] FW: Covid-Lancet-PART-2
(002).doc</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-family:"Comic Sans MS""> is
it true that the matter simply stands with the
Hah-vud studies retracted, and nothing more
said? That doesn’t seem right.</span></i></b></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">I just
don't know.<br>
<br>
I speculated that the topic was just way too
politicized to get to the bottom of it without
spending serious time and effort on it and I chose not
to do that. <br>
<br>
On a personal note, we don't yet have vaccinations in
South Africa, my wife and I are each having daily
doses of Quercetin, a natural over-the-counter version
of Hydroxychloroquine, and vitamin D and Zinc and a
couple of other immune boosters too. <br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 21:46, <<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in
6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks, Pieter, </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Interesting. As somebody who
has followed the research, is it true that the
matter simply stands with the Hah-vud studies
retracted, and nothing more said? That doesn’t
seem right. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Pieter Steenekamp<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 6, 2021 1:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] FW:
Covid-Lancet-PART-2 (002).doc</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">I'm
not particularly fond of Donald Trump, but the
elephant in the room is that
Hydroxychloroquine became well-known after
Trump advocated it. At the time I followed and
researched it a bit and I came to the
conclusion that both the mainstream media and
the medical industry were against
Hydroxychloroquine mainly because Trump
actively advocated it. The Lancet saga
certainly did not influence me to change
that conclusion.</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, 6 May 2021 at
19:52, Frank Wimberly <<a
href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in
6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt">This does not
seem interesting to me. The vaccines have
been demonstrated to be effective and safe
to very large degrees based on many
millions of inoculations. Why should I
care about some suspect studies with small
n.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, May 6, 2021,
11:33 AM <<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in
6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Phellow
Phriammers, </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have noted that
most of what I have written here of
late has been ignored, and that’s
ok, actually. Usually, it is the
possibility that you MIGHT read what
I write that keeps me writing and,
behaviorist to the last, writing is
what I need to do in order to
think. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But this
situation is different. I really
don’t know what to think about <a
href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Dragan-Pavlovic-4"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">Pavlovic’s</a>
paper. There may have been some
trouble with the cloud version, so I
have attached it to this message. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So, this is a
case where I really need some help.
I realize that you are all engaged
in this excellent correspondence
about UBI, which has revealed all
sorts of “-ists” that I never
thought were alive and well in the
world, let alone in this group. I
would not interfere with that for a
second. But, could a few of you
take a look at his <a
href="https://1drv.ms/w/s!AptIKbsAd7gjllccpq9yXXQ4hb2N?e=HCzjaV"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">paper</a>
(very short, a commentary,
actually). I think he is actually a
candidate for this group. He is an
MD, Phd, anaesthesiologist, retired
in Paris, who has participated in
hundreds of scientific papers, who
is passionate ( I worry, perhaps
sometimes a bit too passionate)
about dozens of different things and
suspicious of everything. He wants,
for instance, to dig a gigantic
tunnel to bring large ships directly
from the danube to the
Mediterranean. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I, of course,
live in a bubble, but I don’t like
to have that fact thrust in my face
as powerfully as when he reveals to
me that the two HAAA=VUD papers
denouncing Chloquoroquine were
retracted a year ago, and I never
found out. I can’t get any sense of
whether there has been any attempt
to revive them or to redo the
original clinical study that
suggested HCQ’s efficacy against
CoVid. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Any little bit of
help you could give me would be
great. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b>
<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>
<<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 5,
2021 9:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'The Friday Morning
Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
<<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Prof David West'
<<a
href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b>
Covid-Lancet-PART-2 (002).doc</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p>Dear Colleagues, </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I attach a <a
href="https://1drv.ms/w/s!AptIKbsAd7gjllccpq9yXXQ4hb2N?e=HCzjaV"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">paper</a>
written by an internet acquaintance
I made some years back, Dragan
Pavlovic. I am sending it along for
two reasons. First, it reveals (to
me, at least) that the two negative
studies on Hydroxychloroquine use in
SARS-CoVid-19 treatment were based
on unverified data and were
withdrawn by their authors almost
immediately. (Have the rest of you
known this for the last year and not
told me? I cannot believe, after we
pilloried poor Dave for advocating
for it, that he has not gloated
about it. ) Second, Pavlovic raises
the intension/extension distinction
in the context of the interpretation
of scientific results and also
questions Randomized Control Trials
as the "Gold Standard" for
discovery. Thus, I think he is a
kindred spirit, being a bit of a
grumpy contrarian like many of us
here. I have promised to forward
any comments you make to him, so be
polite but speak truth. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Thanks, </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Nick Nicholas Thompson</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus
Professor of Ethology and Psychology</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Clark University</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
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