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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Steve, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Please have a look at the “<a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/302329059_The_Misappropriation_of_Teleonomy">Misappropriation of Teleonomy</a>”. You might find it useful in distinguishing teleonomy from teleology. Or not. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>N<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"><span style='color:#0563C1'>ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"><span style='color:#0563C1'>https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Smith<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 8, 2021 9:21 PM<br><b>To:</b> friam@redfish.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Morphogenisis<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p>Stellar Eric!<o:p></o:p></p><p>Two observations:<o:p></o:p></p><p> I recently learned the term "Teleonomic" which I really like as an alternative to "Telelogical" in many cases.<o:p></o:p></p><p> And what of the difference between "Light follows a shortest-time path through space" and "Light IS the shortest time path through space"?<o:p></o:p></p><p>Both of the latter may be wrong, but they are qualitatively different in an interesting way, no?<o:p></o:p></p><p>- Steve<o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 5/8/21 9:13 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>English has two categories of verbs: intransitive and transitive. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>If you use an intransitive verb — “yet it moves” — the Metaphor Nazi will catch you coming: claiming you are representing volition.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>If you use a transitive verb — “it is moved by gravity” — the Metaphor Nazi will catch you going: claiming an agent/patient relation, where the agent is probably (metaphorically) God (!), or whatever God is a metaphor for. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>And we have from Ecclesiastes (the verse in praise of the Metaphor Nazi):<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="http://www.shakespeare-online.com/sonnets/59.html#:~:text=If there be nothing new (1): Compare Ecclesiastes 1.9,new thing under the sun."">http://www.shakespeare-online.com/sonnets/59.html#:~:text=If%20there%20be%20nothing%20new%20(1)%3A%20Compare%20Ecclesiastes%201.9,new%20thing%20under%20the%20sun.%22</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Ecclesiastes 1.9: "The thing that hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done; and there is no new thing under the sun."</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>To which the scientist (note small “s”) would like to assert “the language of mechanics is not English; speaking it is a new practice available to people to participate in”.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>But let Shakespeare have the last word:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>If there be nothing new, but that which is<br>Hath been before, how are our brains beguil'd,<br>Which, labouring for invention, bear amiss<br>The second burthen of a former child!<br>O, that record could with a backward look,<br>Even of five hundred courses of the sun,<br>Show me your image in some antique book,<br>Since mind at first in character was done!<br>That I might see what the old world could say<br>To this composed wonder of your frame;<br>Whether we are mended, or whe'r better they,<br>Or whether revolution be the same.<br>O! sure I am, the wits of former days<br>To subjects worse have given admiring praise.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><br><br></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Eric</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><br><br></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>On May 9, 2021, at 11:36 AM, Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>The ball accelerated is clearly a metaphor as it implies that the ball is doing a specific thing, that the ball has behavior and probably volition. This is clearly not what you literally mean.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>davew<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>On Sat, May 8, 2021, at 4:57 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: auto;-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px' id=qt><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>"The ball accelerated at approximately 32 feet per second squared at sea level in a vacuum."<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>doesn't seem to be a metaphor to me.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>---<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Frank C. Wimberly<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>140 Calle Ojo Feliz,<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Santa Fe, NM 87505<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>505 670-9918<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Santa Fe, NM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>On Sat, May 8, 2021, 3:07 PM <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204,
204)'><div><div><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Listen, Fella!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>It’s metaphors all the way down!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>[shoe thrown]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>n<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style='color:#0563C1'>ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,76cwsDofsJZfToBxaQU6zR5cllp_k59wtln_iQtSrD8ozjyEN9kt0FPUs4RnuGnWMKFW-nOw3wJjMgAgCJAkSTlh3C3YKbI75yNyUMUvvw,,&typo=1" target="_blank"><span style='color:#0563C1'>https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor;border-image-outset: 0;border-image-repeat:
stretch;border-image-slice: 100%;border-image-source: none;border-image-width:
1'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> </span></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Gary Schiltz<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Sent:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> </span></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Saturday, May 8, 2021 1:36 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>To:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> </span></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Subject:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> </span></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Re: [FRIAM] Morphogenisis<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>First of all, it's just a metaphor (ducking, the shoe barely missing my head) :-)<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Second of all, that description of animal development sure sounds to me like "following a script". <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 2:23 PM <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor
currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204, 204,
204);border-image-outset: 0;border-image-repeat:
stretch;border-image-slice: 100%;border-image-source: none;border-image-width: 1'><div><div><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>This struck me:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-m-7272196601106796176gmail-m-6118501720637267473quotation><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>When animals develop, they don’t follow a script. Instead, responding to their environment, the cells negotiate and feel their way toward a final form. A fertilized egg divides, and divides again, creating a hollow ball of cells called a blastula; genes instruct these cells to release chemicals, and other cells, reacting to those chemical concentrations, decide to migrate elsewhere or to develop into specific types of tissue. Other influences—oxygen, nutrients, hormones, sometimes toxins—further shape gestation.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/10/persuading-the-body-to-regenerate-its-limbs?utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_050821&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bd678d924c17c104801f684&cndid=40835928&hasha=1dc6f15a30be2d4712fae5f0e5a9a679&hashb=5e4befc88214fadc869224d7cb34d55f51451bc7&hashc=0c6ef6b7bc8221288e1f4a4ca0116d78a21ebdbe47949488640c7c54c93120fb&esrc=AUTO_PRINT&utm_term=TNY_Daily" target="_blank">https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/10/persuading-the-body-to-regenerate-its-limbs?utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_050821&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bd678d924c17c104801f684&cndid=40835928&hasha=1dc6f15a30be2d4712fae5f0e5a9a679&hashb=5e4befc88214fadc869224d7cb34d55f51451bc7&hashc=0c6ef6b7bc8221288e1f4a4ca0116d78a21ebdbe47949488640c7c54c93120fb&esrc=AUTO_PRINT&utm_term=TNY_Daily</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>First, note the reliance on psychological terms. This is the sort of passage that would stimulate my teasing Hywel with, “So you see, Hywel, psychology really IS the mother of all sciences.” And don’t any of you DARE to come back at me with, “It’s just a metaphor.” <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Second, which of these two models encapsulates more closely what you wizards mean by computation. Is carrying out an algorithm more like “computation” or is “building a limb”? Is a salamander’s limb “computed”? If so, who computes it, or is that a violation of the language of computation. I know. Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Your loyal fool,<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Nic<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=qt-msonormal><span 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style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><br>archives:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>archives: <a 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