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<p>I found "Grain" to be the most relevant to my own sensitivities
but I've a friend whose sensitivities are maybe closer to your own
who turned me onto "Art" because of that. The former is more
about the human transition into Sedentary Agriculturalism and the
implications for societal order while the latter is more about the
geopolitical circumstances throughout southeast asia which allowed
for a significant population/cultures to emerge/exist/continue
mostly out from under the thumb of any particular nation-state, no
matter what the lines and colors on the map said. <br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/8/21 7:38 AM, Prof David West
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:d26130a5-c965-4540-a0d4-6c4b7bd31d61@www.fastmail.com">
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">I am not, but will purchase and
read asap.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div>On Sat, May 8, 2021, at 12:30 AM, Steve Smith wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style="">
<p>Dave -<br>
</p>
<p>I think I have referenced these before but your anecdotes
here remind me of Jim Scott's "Against the Grain" and "The Art
of Not Being Governed". I wonder if you are familiar with any
of his work?<br>
</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<div class="qt-moz-cite-prefix">On 5/7/21 8:02 AM, Prof David
West wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:43290a23-cde1-4b1b-9742-e586e1fa2dae@www.fastmail.com">
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Russ,<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Your intuition is partly
correct: these societies, for the most part, were embedded
in an extensive cultural web of kinship, norms, rituals,
world-view — like any culture or any people. It appears to
us that their culture was more pervasive, expressed more
consistently, and "enforced" more dramatically, but that is
not necessarily true. It would be the case that those
participating in those cultures would not experience their
culture as, in any way, oppressive. In fact, they would be
just as oblivious to their culture as we are to our own.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">None of these cultures were
authoritarian in any sense. Leadership was situational - a
"war chief" when threatened, a "forager chief" during the
harvest season. The only permanent leadership position would
be the "shaman" who was, more often than not, female.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Some of the societies were
hierarchical and authoritarian to some degree, like the
Inca. But even they were able to establish and maintain a
vast trading network from southern Chile to Meso-America and
even into what is not the southwest US - all without money.
Quiipu, knotted strings, recorded facts or information, like
how much of what commodity was sent where by whom, but no
concept of money or 'exchange rate'.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">All of these societies were
'brittle' in the sense that none of them survived encounter
with European colonizers.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">If you ever have the
inclination, explore water management on Bali. The
indigenous culture allocated water among rice fields based
on a complicated system of myths, rituals, and interpreted
omens, a classical intra-cultural solution, The Dutch came
along and implemented a "scientific" water management system
and immediately lost 50% of rice production and initiated a
decade of near starvation before they gave up and let the
priests take over water management again.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Bali is an excellent example
of how an optimum solution to a complex (in the SFI sense)
problem "evolves" over generations of trial and error with
successes preserved via myth and ritual.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">A related curiosity (for extra
credit) — in every hunter-gatherer society of which
anthropology is aware, the men hunt and the women gather.
To date, no one has been able to explain why. It cannot be
explained by maternal roles or physical capacity. The range
of theories proposed and debunked over the years is quite
large and often very amusing.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div>On Thu, May 6, 2021, at 10:20 AM, Russ Abbott wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" id="qt-qt" style="">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="qt-qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0, 0,
0);">Thanks, David.<br>
</div>
<div class="qt-qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0, 0,
0);"><br>
</div>
<div class="qt-qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0, 0,
0);">I have no background in <span style="color:rgb(34,
34, 34);"><span class="qt-font" style=""><span
class="font" style="font-family:Arial;">Economic
Anthropology</span></span></span><span
style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);"><span class="qt-font"
style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:Arial;"> and am interested in
hearing about societies that function effectively
without something like money. My intuition
(perhaps wrong) is that the only ways to make that
work over extended periods are rigid societal
structures (enforced, perhaps by powerful,
well-established cultural norms) or force/power
(as in authoritarian societies). In both cases, it
seems likely (although, again, I could be wrong)
that such societies will be quite static,
inflexible, and brittle in the face of challenges.
Are the societies you cite different from such
paradigms?</span></span></span><br>
</div>
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<div class="qt-qt-gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="qt-qt-gmail_attr">On Thu, May 6,
2021 at 7:30 AM Prof David West <<a
href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"
moz-do-not-send="true">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="qt-qt-gmail_quote"
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<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Russ raised the
question about alternatives to capitalism. A quick
perusal of a good Economic Anthropology textbook can
provide numerous examples. Many of which worked at a
scale far greater than 150 people. Example: an
Aboriginal economic system that incorporated
multiple tribes in an area from the north coast of
Australia to the interior of the continent; or,
pre-Columbian Incas.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">These systems were
established and maintained by being embedded in the
overall culture: i.e. because of a vast web of
kinship, inter-personal, obligation, concrete
resources, myth, and ritual. In contrast, modern
economic systems (capitalism or Marxism, or ...) are
divorced from "reality" and exist in a world of
abstractions.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Christopher Alexander
illustrated this distinction with regard to
architecture and the difference between what he
called the selfconscious and the non-selfconscious
process of building. In the latter, the knowledge of
how to build and maintain a house, for example, was
embedded in myth and ritual and "common sense
knowledge." Ideal designs, ones adapted to the
context — physical and cultural — evolved over time
and preserved by being embedded in the culture.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Selfconscious design
is epitomized by academic schools of architecture
where abstract concepts of design arise and "good"
design is judged by conformity to the abstractions
and is divorced from reality.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Similarly with
economic systems. The root of all evil is money
which is an abstraction. How much "wealth" is
grounded in abstractions of abstractions of
abstractions in capitalist economic systems? Marxism
might be marginally better than capitalism simply
because it has never had the time an opportunity to
develop the same kind of meta-abstraction structures
that are prevalent in capitalism.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Human evolved a
left-brain and it is our ruination.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div>On Thu, May 6, 2021, at 5:21 AM, David Eric Smith
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
id="qt-qt-gmail-m_4702457482203201306qt">
<div>Hi Pieter,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Not that it matters (to anything), but No, zero
support for Chomsky from me.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>He is the archetype of a bully and a
demagogue. It was his MO in linguistics his
entire career, a field that was susceptible to
that sort of thing, and to which he has done great
harm. It’s a shame, too, because as you say, he
is smart, and some of his early ideas were
interesting and insightful. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That is not an ad hominem to the side, it is a
propos de his political writing. I do think some
of his criticisms of the predatoriness of the
American system are correct, and they benefit from
his intelligence and energy. But I think your
criticism that all he does is stand in judgment
from the sidelines and not bear human
responsibility for what happens when you get
things wrong is just the right one.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Have you noticed that there are some people who
seem deeply grounded in a concern for others’
wellbeing, and seem to work tirelessly to help? I
have the impression that, for instance, Karen Bass
(a US congresswoman who was for a time considered
for Vice President) is such a person. The best
kind of people who rise within civil rights
movements and causes. I am struck by how often
they have no interest in blaming and judging; it
is a distraction from the work they are trying to
do.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On the other side, there are people who choose
causes that may have righteous elements, but seem
to choose them for the reinforcement of identity
it gives them to stand in condemning judgment on
others. That is all I can see in Chomsky. It
doesn’t mean everything he says is wrong, and
criticisms have a place. But a premise that there
is any kind of anarchism that doesn’t instantly
get taken over by gangs seems way too
anti-empirical to be claimed as a “smart”
position.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But fair enough to argue the claims,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Eric<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On May 6, 2021, at 4:28 PM, Pieter
Steenekamp <<a
href="mailto:pieters@randcontrols.co.za"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">pieters@randcontrols.co.za</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I have a little book On
Anarchism by Noam Chomsky. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Chomsky is IMO a very smart person
and it's maybe worthwhile to pay
attention to his ideas?<br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Although I don't want to reject
his ideas, my mind is open, I'm not
convinced it will work out as
intended. The problem is he offers
anarchism as an idea without
specifics of how to implement it and
how the valid concerns about it can
be addressed.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>At least, Chomsky's abhorrence of
capitalism will maybe find fertile
ground among some members of this
group?<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On Thu, 6 May 2021 at
08:34, Russ Abbott <<a
href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,
204,
204);border-left-style:solid;border-left-width:1px;padding-left:1ex;">
<div dir="auto">Eric, You explained
many of the problems in much more
depth and detail than I did. Well
done. Thanks.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, May 5, 2021,
4:46 PM David Eric Smith <<a
href="mailto:desmith@santafe.edu"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">desmith@santafe.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,
204,
204);border-left-style:solid;border-left-width:1px;padding-left:1ex;">
<div>
<div>Yes, agreed, Russ, with
amendments.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I wrote some long awful
thing on this yesterday and
had the good manners to delete
without sending.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think capitalism isn’t
even about money; there are
two issues: capitalist
property rights and monetary
or financial layers in the
economy.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I know Glen doesn’t like
the terms “means of
production”, but we can
capture a big subset with an
everyday term like “tools”.
Tools are durable things,
built at cost with the intent
that they can be repeatedly
used. They are not a monetary
store of value, but they are,
in other material senses, a
store of transformational
power over things one wants to
transform.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But as soon as there is a
tool, there is a decision
problem over how it can be
used and by whom. I think
“ownership rights” is the name
we give to any solution to
(meaning, “commitment to some
protocol for”) that problem.
With ownership then comes at
least an incentive, and in
many real, limited-information
settings, a realized ability,
for the de facto owner of a
tool to guide where the
productive output using the
tool goes. It’s kind of the
default basic-layer dynamic
that follows from tool
creation and tool ownership.
We can understand how tricky
that instability can be to
manage from study of these
intricate and fancy mechanisms
in hunter-gatherer societies
to blunt the concentration of
power (arrow-sharing that
guides who gets meat; the kind
of thing Sam Bowles studies).
Ownership provides a channel
for itself to concentrate, and
to concentrate other things
(obliquely, referring to
“wealth” by whatever
measure). That seems to me
the essence of the capitalist
problem, which then takes
various forms depending on
social institutional choices.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It seems to me that we
don’t want to give up tools,
so we can’t give up the
problem of committing to some
solution for ownership, and
with that, we have to face up
to the complex problem of
regulating against the
tendency of ownership to
concentrate its de facto power
by redirecting the proceeds of
things produced.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is why I don’t buy, as
an empirical matter, Pieter’s
optimism about things’
becoming too cheap to meter.
In some ways, and in
projections to some
dimensions, yes, that is a
fair description. Computer
operating systems used to be
pay-per-version, now many are
free. Communication used to
be charge-per-use, now much of
it is paid for by advertising
(“free” only in an extreme
distortion of what dimensions
carry value, but nonetheless
one that has taken most people
some years to become aware
of). But the very way the
rise of the concentration of
wealth in the Tech sector
before, and even more
grotesquely so during the
pandemic, is raising all the
old arguments about the
capitalist class, seems to me
to show even in quite abstract
domains of information and
coordination services, that
tool ownership has default
instabilities that always act
unless we can find effective
regulatory strategies to blunt
them.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In this sense I think Glen
does make the most important
point, which is that if there
is a strong argument about
UBI, its context is
overwhelmingly about the
problem that innovations in
absolute output seem always
coupled to concentrations of
inequality. Relative to that,
almost everything Shapiro said
in that piece was tropes that,
at 15 places in the short
talk, gave me an internal
impulse to go cite the person
who shows they are tropes by
providing the good-faith and
well thought-out
counterargument. It is a bit
sad that Yang doesn’t feel
able (and maybe isn’t able) to
take that bull by the horns
and say that this is where the
UBI question lives. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>To me, money is a somewhat
separate question: a mechanism
for the distribution of
permissions, communication,
authority, etc., which makes
certain coordination problems
tractable that otherwise
wouldn’t be. I don’t think we
want to give up the ability to
use that, and even if some
did, so many others don’t that
there probably is no path for
society that keeps it gone.
But, as many in the thread
have so well said already,
money is a terrible
dimension-reducer, and the
problems of “store of
transformation power” that
come with tool ownership, then
take on new versions as “store
of value” which is a kind of
exchangeable access to
ownership rights over
everything. But again, if we
either can’t or (I will accept
the position of) don’t want to
give up what it allows us to
do, we again face the
complexity and difficulty of
inventing or evolving (in
whatever combinations)
regulatory strategies to try
to limits its default
instabilities.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Anyway, to say I agree with
Russ’s motivation to push this
point.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Eric<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On May 6, 2021, at
8:15 AM, Russ Abbott
<<a
href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><span
style="color:rgb(34,
34, 34);"><span
style=""><span
class="qt-font"
style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Arial,
Helvetica,
sans-serif;"><span
style=""><span
class="qt-size" style=""><span class="size" style="font-size:small;">Earlie</span></span></span></span></span></span></span>r,
uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ said:<span
style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);"><span style=""><span class="qt-font"
style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Arial,
Helvetica,
sans-serif;"><span
style=""><span
class="qt-size" style=""><span class="size" style="font-size:small;"> If
we're stuck
with
capitalism,
then I'm for
UBI. If we can
get out from
under
capitalism,
then I'm not.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span><span
style=""><span
class="qt-font"
style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif;"> </span></span></span><span
style=""><span
class="qt-font"
style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif;">Nick
added: </span></span></span>it
is the "triumph" of
capitalism to reduce
all relationships to
money. <br>
</div>
<div><span style=""><span
class="qt-font"
style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif;"></span></span></span><br>
</div>
<div><span style=""><span
class="qt-font"
style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif;">I
wonder if this
is not
assuming that
there is an
alternative to
what you are
calling <i>capitalism</i>. </span></span></span><span
style=""><span
class="qt-font"
style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif;">A</span></span></span><span
style=""><span
class="qt-font"
style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif;">s </span></span></span>uǝlƃ
↙↙↙ points out<span
style=""><span
class="qt-font"
style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif;">,
co-ops can
work on
relatively
small scales, </span></span></span><span
style=""><span
class="qt-font"
style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif;">but
if we are
going to live
in groups of
larger than
~150 people,
how are you
imagining that
we will
arrange
interactions
without
something like
money? Even on
small scales,
how will a
collective </span></span></span><span><span
style=""><span
class="qt-font"
style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif;">without
money </span></span></span></span><span><span
style=""><span
class="qt-font"
style=""><span
class="font"
style="font-family:arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif;">organize
itself in
anything other
than a very
static
structure? And
on larger
scales, what
is the
organizing
principle
other than
power? It's
not clear to
me how an
alternative
that </span></span></span></span>uǝlƃ
↙↙↙ is supposing
possible will
actually work. uǝlƃ
↙↙↙, would you mind
elaborating what you
have in mind?<br>
</div>
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style="color:rgb(33, 33, 33);line-height:24.75px;"><span style=""><span
class="qt-font" style=""><span style=""><span class="qt-size" style=""><span
class="size"
style="font-size:16.5px;"></span></span></span></span></span></span>--
Russ Abbott
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<div dir="ltr">On Wed,
May 5, 2021 at 2:17
PM jon zingale <<a
href="mailto:jonzingale@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">jonzingale@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,
204,
204);border-left-style:solid;border-left-width:1px;padding-left:1ex;">
<div>Yeah, I think
it is safe to say
that "huge costs"
are a sign of
progress in<br>
</div>
<div>the same sense
that smoke is a
sign of fire.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--<br>
</div>
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