<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">All you have below, Nick, is both sound and interesting, and at least to the level of a point of view, a position I share. (I won’t take positions on what was important in this or that bit of history of scientific thourght, including endorsing the versions you give below, where I have not studied.)<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My motto is one I have heard Glen espouse, though I have my own formulation:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">“Some things in moderation.”</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I heard Frank, on this occasion as on indefinitely many before it — FRIAM really is like Nietzche’s eternal recurrence in some ways — pushing back against the assertion “Everything is metaphor, and you don’t get to say otherwise”. So no, you don’t execute people for using metaphors; you forbid them any claim that they are ever doing anything else (or that is how I read many of the emails). </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">To elevate metaphors to a totalizing (or totalitarian) philosophical system, into which everything has to be crammed by a kind of scholastic debate, is I think only possible if you forbid that anything can ever be its own, new, self. I think that is probably a mistake. I don’t know if you believe you are doing it, or whether you are doing it. I make whatever I can of the words that come across the screen, and accept responsibility for errors.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My impulse — dull and tedious like much I do — is to lampoon metaphors as a philosophical system to try to get at what I object to. So:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">English descriptions of mechanics aren’t really a new language; they are English, hence metaphors.</div><div class="">But if so:</div><div class="">English isn’t really “a” language (indefinite article implying distinctness); it’s just a metaphorical use of porto-West Germanic. So is German.</div><div class="">But porto-West Germanic wasn’t really “a” language either; it was a metaphorical use of proto-Indo European;</div><div class="">A metaphorical use of proto-Nostratic</div><div class="">A metaphorical use of porto-Sapiens</div><div class="">Of what….?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The System requires absurdity. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So alongside the question of What is Not New that guides the analysis of (monomania for?) metaphor, I want to put the other question How can something “be” new? And how do new things come into being? When a thing actually is new, I would like to allow myself to recognize that.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">For scientific language and practice, I am almost interested enough in this question to try to put a little work into it.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">One thing I don’t want to pass over, because it is too important and too good:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div class="" style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Do [you] regard your affection for poetry as a sinful indulgence or do you regard it (as I would) as an essential feature of your scientific imagination. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div class="" style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br class=""></div></div></div><div class="">Neither in the primary role. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It’s appreciating being alive, and realizing that with life and literacy, I have open to me the joy of experiencing insights and creations of beauty from across time, place, circumstance, and identity. Each mode, in its own name, has a place, not a servant of anything else. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Eric</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On May 9, 2021, at 1:02 PM, <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">EricS,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I hope I am not the metaphor Nazi; I certainly don’t want to be him. I certainly don’t want to execute anybody for using metaphors. On the contrary. Rather my point is that they are essential to good thought and that many scientists who voice contempt for metaphors use them regularly all the time in ways that are essential to their work. The Pragmatic value of recognizing that we are using metaphors is that such a recognition leads to a discussion of whether we are using them well. All metaphors, be it good ones or bad ones, import “surplus meaning” into the terms of use, and this surplus meaning can affect scientific thinking for good or ill depending on whether we acknowledge it and systematically explore its implications. Surplus meaning is often the wet edge of discovery but some times the hidden assumption that keeps us from seeing the plain facts before us. The clearest example of this is the metaphor of natural selection in which Darwin imagined that nature is like a giant pigeon coop. This metaphor contain contains an infinity of useful implications and a few that are down right poisonous. It’s important to know which are which. I think Frank’s example of gravity is perhaps another great example. Isn’t it one of Einstein’s greatest insights that the metaphor of attraction implicit in “gravity”, which arose from experiments with primitive magnets in Newton’s time, is not as useful in many instances as the metaphor that massive objects warp the space around them. So, one of Einstein’s great contributions to physics is that he introduced a new metaphor? Do I have that wrong?<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Do regard your affection for poetry as a sinful indulgence or do you regard it (as I would) as an essential feature of your scientific imagination. <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I don’t know why it is that moving house seems to free me up to think about everything but moving house. One is not allowed parting shots in parliamentary debate, and I probably shouldn’t be taking them here.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Nick<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Nick Thompson<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,XJhhPJ-oVSl8X4m1HOwWJRzhFdQpyxA1bF6JR4_N6oxF2MP5Qn_sU53PD8ov7bA94VeBYB22Z14WcUI9fxqo8yEX2utlE-B0k02HBDbuyrKCzkMb&typo=1" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>David Eric Smith<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, May 8, 2021 9:13 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam@redfish.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [FRIAM] Morphogenisis<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">English has two categories of verbs: intransitive and transitive.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">If you use an intransitive verb — “yet it moves” — the Metaphor Nazi will catch you coming: claiming you are representing volition.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">If you use a transitive verb — “it is moved by gravity” — the Metaphor Nazi will catch you going: claiming an agent/patient relation, where the agent is probably (metaphorically) God (!), or whatever God is a metaphor for. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">And we have from Ecclesiastes (the verse in praise of the Metaphor Nazi):<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.shakespeare-online.com%2fsonnets%2f59.html%23%3a~%3atext%3dIf%20there%20be%20nothing%20new%20%281%29%3a%20Compare%20Ecclesiastes%201.9%2cnew%20thing%20under%20the%20sun.%22&c=E,1,3Jr27auXXv3fDam204gK4sg7WCGukhf105TyLUha-RBtqZ4K-YMRv8931y5-6oFd5ZnS6mgE1YeTmw6Ow6g8IalAw6Ks1QwhMH7Mxh7wBGROiw,,&typo=1" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.shakespeare-online.com/sonnets/59.html#:~:text=If%20there%20be%20nothing%20new%20(1)%3A%20Compare%20Ecclesiastes%201.9,new%20thing%20under%20the%20sun.%22</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="" class="">Ecclesiastes 1.9: "The thing that hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done; and there is no new thing under the sun."</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">To which the scientist (note small “s”) would like to assert “the language of mechanics is not English; speaking it is a new practice available to people to participate in”.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">But let Shakespeare have the last word:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="" class="">If there be nothing new, but that which is<br class="">Hath been before, how are our brains beguil'd,<br class="">Which, labouring for invention, bear amiss<br class="">The second burthen of a former child!<br class="">O, that record could with a backward look,<br class="">Even of five hundred courses of the sun,<br class="">Show me your image in some antique book,<br class="">Since mind at first in character was done!<br class="">That I might see what the old world could say<br class="">To this composed wonder of your frame;<br class="">Whether we are mended, or whe'r better they,<br class="">Or whether revolution be the same.<br class="">O! sure I am, the wits of former days<br class="">To subjects worse have given admiring praise.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="" class=""><br class=""><br class=""></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="" class="">Eric</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="" class=""><br class=""><br class=""></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On May 9, 2021, at 11:36 AM, Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">The ball accelerated is clearly a metaphor as it implies that the ball is doing a specific thing, that the ball has behavior and probably volition. This is clearly not what you literally mean.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">davew<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">On Sat, May 8, 2021, at 4:57 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote id="qt" style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; font-variant-caps: normal; text-align: start; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing: 0px;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">"The ball accelerated at approximately 32 feet per second squared at sea level in a vacuum."<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">doesn't seem to be a metaphor to me.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">---<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Frank C. Wimberly<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">140 Calle Ojo Feliz,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Santa Fe, NM 87505<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">505 670-9918<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Santa Fe, NM<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">On Sat, May 8, 2021, 3:07 PM <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class=""><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Listen, Fella!<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">It’s metaphors all the way down!<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">[shoe thrown]<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">n<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Nick Thompson<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,76cwsDofsJZfToBxaQU6zR5cllp_k59wtln_iQtSrD8ozjyEN9kt0FPUs4RnuGnWMKFW-nOw3wJjMgAgCJAkSTlh3C3YKbI75yNyUMUvvw,,&typo=1" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; border-color: currentcolor; border-image-outset: 0; border-image-repeat: stretch; border-image-slice: 100%; border-image-source: none; border-image-width: 1;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Gary Schiltz<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Sent:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Saturday, May 8, 2021 1:36 PM<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">To:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam@redfish.com</a>><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Subject:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Re: [FRIAM] Morphogenisis<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div></div><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><div class=""><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">First of all, it's just a metaphor (ducking, the shoe barely missing my head) :-)<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><div class=""><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Second of all, that description of animal development sure sounds to me like "following a script". <o:p class=""></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><div class=""><div class=""><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 2:23 PM <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt; border-color: currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204, 204, 204); border-image-outset: 0; border-image-repeat: stretch; border-image-slice: 100%; border-image-source: none; border-image-width: 1;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class=""><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">This struck me:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-m-7272196601106796176gmail-m-6118501720637267473quotation" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">When animals develop, they don’t follow a script. Instead, responding to their environment, the cells negotiate and feel their way toward a final form. A fertilized egg divides, and divides again, creating a hollow ball of cells called a blastula; genes instruct these cells to release chemicals, and other cells, reacting to those chemical concentrations, decide to migrate elsewhere or to develop into specific types of tissue. Other influences—oxygen, nutrients, hormones, sometimes toxins—further shape gestation.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/10/persuading-the-body-to-regenerate-its-limbs?utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_050821&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bd678d924c17c104801f684&cndid=40835928&hasha=1dc6f15a30be2d4712fae5f0e5a9a679&hashb=5e4befc88214fadc869224d7cb34d55f51451bc7&hashc=0c6ef6b7bc8221288e1f4a4ca0116d78a21ebdbe47949488640c7c54c93120fb&esrc=AUTO_PRINT&utm_term=TNY_Daily" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/10/persuading-the-body-to-regenerate-its-limbs?utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_050821&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bd678d924c17c104801f684&cndid=40835928&hasha=1dc6f15a30be2d4712fae5f0e5a9a679&hashb=5e4befc88214fadc869224d7cb34d55f51451bc7&hashc=0c6ef6b7bc8221288e1f4a4ca0116d78a21ebdbe47949488640c7c54c93120fb&esrc=AUTO_PRINT&utm_term=TNY_Daily</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">First, note the reliance on psychological terms. This is the sort of passage that would stimulate my teasing Hywel with, “So you see, Hywel, psychology really IS the mother of all sciences.” And don’t any of you DARE to come back at me with, “It’s just a metaphor.” <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Second, which of these two models encapsulates more closely what you wizards mean by computation. Is carrying out an algorithm more like “computation” or is “building a limb”? Is a salamander’s limb “computed”? If so, who computes it, or is that a violation of the language of computation. I know. Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Your loyal fool,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Nic<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Nick Thompson<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,kvyM80dHEYWNqV-0eMQdLvzgq9gnoqHZgBnwovx7X25DXpFtBFHjG7rHeqhcFUSqxlCOPKZ_ChyYYA8MEuyB_a_FRcYGgZ_JxXKUF1U4Ncx44i5dHnfxik87XZ1D&typo=1" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="qt-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; 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text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">FRIAM-COMIC<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,wFK_q-m91VEHsGMYUpaUNfuzpPV5AzYSI5vB9CyFVHgeYqhgOQ1g3KZmGO1JgHxK-aOZ8gOArzf_3L7A6ibm_7MhZTpVoU7l34UrOaxFG4c,&typo=1" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">archives:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank" style="color: blue; 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