<div dir="ltr">Two different points to consider:<br><br><div><b>Point one: what do you want to achieve?</b><br>For everyone to be happy? </div><div>For everyone to flourish?<br>For everyone to be equal?<br>For everyone to be free?<br>For the environment to flourish?<br>For all of this to be sustainable?<br><br>Of course, different people have different values, that has to be taken into consideration too. The relative importance different persons assign to different components of the optimum desired outcome will obviously be different. <br><br>I speculate that some optimum combination of a large number of required outcomes could be a good compromised objective.<br><br><b>Point two: after you have decided what you want to achieve then the next question is how to design a system that will achieve it?</b><br>To do this, you obviously have to understand the complex adaptive system of the earth including humanity.<br><br>Any volunteers claiming that they:<br>a) Will be able to define a "good" required outcome<br>b) Understand the earth with all it's complexities well enough to have any level of confidence that their proposed system will achieve the required outcomes?<br>Good luck, I'm by far not smart enough,<br><br>Mao Zedong thought he had the answers and it is claimed that he is the single person that caused the most deaths in human history. His very well intended plans did not work out as intended. But of course, he was not an evil man, his intentions were good. <br><br>If you design/support a specific system for human society, how sure are you it will achieve a "good" outcome. For example, personally I think Denmark achieves pretty good outcome but I doubt very much if you just try to copy Denmark's government and policies in America it's going to fail miserably. I mention Denmark because my one daughter and her family plans to emigrate to Denmark and my son in law gave me lots of reading to do and asked me to study it and give my advice. After doing my homework as requested my advice to them was I think it will work for them. (By the way, I don't think it will work for my wife and me, we are too individualistic and don't like our lives to be micromanaged, South Africa works well for us thank you very much.)</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 9 May 2021 at 19:19, Russ Abbott <<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>Dave, Very interesting example. As you said, "the<span style="font-family:arial"> "economy" of these cultures is based on a mixture of balanced and general reciprocity."</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:arial"><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:arial">That works only if there are no (or very few) free-riders. How can that rule be enforced? (It's certainly not "natural.") Either it's enforced individually, i.e., everyone was "indoctrinated" to believe it through strict training, or society came down strongly (either by normative practice or by formal enforcement authorities) on those who violated the rules. </span></div><div dir="auto"><font face="arial"><br></font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="arial">In either case, some societal structure eliminates the need for a more market-oriented mechanism for allocating resources.<br></font><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, May 9, 2021, 8:14 AM Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" target="_blank">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u><div><div style="font-family:Arial">With one slight modification, I agree completely with glen's five principles. The exception: <i>"there is nothing supernatural, so all solutions have to be built on science."</i> The closest thing to a "cultural universal" (a practice, norm, technology, custom, etc. that is shared by all cultures) is a belief in a <b>supernatural</b>. I see no problem in basing a "solution" — a non-money-based social structure — on such a belief.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">The most prominent examples of societies/cultures that do not use money internally, would be the Mennonites and the Amish. Both do use money externally, i.e. for interactions with outsiders. An example that I am more familiar with is the <b><i>United Order</i></b> established by Brigham Young.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Orderville is a small town about 20 miles south of where I live and was the last community to practice the United Order. Just before its demise, the community numbered in several thousands and engaged in enterprises that included mining, ranching, lumber mill, textile and garment manufacturing, cotton growing, mercantile and trade, etc. The geographic range of the community covered all of Arizona north of the Grand Canyon, as far as present day Las Vegas, and the southern third of Utah.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">It was a Mormon community and all shared a common belief in a 'supernatural' and that belief played an integral role in the organization of the community. For example, the Bishop's Storehouse — both literal and metaphorical — was the repository of all goods and produce from the community and the Bishop, a religious leader, was charged with protection and distribution of contents among the populace according to need. But a Bishop is not a full-time religious figure — the church, even today, has less than 100 people who are 'paid clergy' — and not an authoritarian figure. Although there was a division of labor (men seldom worked in the communal kitchen and women seldom engaged in ranching or mining) it was primarily an egalitarian society. Women also tended to exert civil and social authority over the community while men exercised religious authority.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Everyone, including children from age 8 and older (age of baptism), had direct access to the supernatural (to God) and was expected to use that access to determine correct actions and make decisions with regard every aspect of life. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">All of this functioned (internally) without any form of money (or similar abstraction).<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Orderville was disbanded when the US Government took control of Utah, took away women's right to vote, confiscated property of anyone with any connection to polygyny, and imposed a Washington-based civil authority.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Because the "economy" of these cultures is based on a mixture of balanced and general reciprocity, there is no need for money within the society.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">There is no reason that these cultures could not scale to at least 'national' scales except, perhaps, those like the Amish that eschew technology and the "modern."<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">for what it is worth,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">On Sun, May 9, 2021, at 5:27 AM, ⛧ glen wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> It's not clear to me why my attempt to answer hasn't impacted the way <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> you repeated the question. So I've copied it below. What I outline is a <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> hand wave at a future structure not entirely without money, but with an <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> augmented money.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> I think these 5 principles also model the non-moneyed organizations <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> Dave references.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> I understand that these answers aren't *complete*. But your repeating <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> your same question without incorporating the attempts to answer it is <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> worriesome.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> On May 5, 2021 5:17:00 PM PDT, "uǝlƃ ↙↙↙" <<a href="mailto:gepropella%40gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">gepropella@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >Well, there are smarter people than me, who know more about Marxism<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >than I do, on this list. But it seems there are ~5 principles to guide<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >it:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> ><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >• civilization is already a cooperative enterprise, it's just a matter<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >of cooperation's extent/ubiquity<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >• there's nothing supernatural, so all solutions have to be built on<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >science<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >• innovation, technology, culture, etc. are limited only by nature; so<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >in principle the things we build (including governments) can be as big<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >and complex as the natural world<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >• class is a cultural construct; we create it; hence we can eliminate<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >it<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >• the spectral signature of organization sizes is present in nature and<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >should be mirrored in society (e.g. power laws for org sizes, small<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >world networks, etc)<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> ><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >None of this implies the elimination of money. Reduction to a single<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >dimension is just fine *when* it works. But when it doesn't work, it<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >has to be "fleshed out" with other structure. Contracts are such a<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >structure. We use contracts all the time to flesh out our money-based<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >transactions. And contracts need not be simply pairwise (as Pieter<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >seemed to imply with his conception of a free market). Contracts can be<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >between any number of groups or individuals ... they nest.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> ><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >The trick is with the legal system and spatiotemporal extension. When<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >the lawyers draw up a contract and the courts judge an alleged breach,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >there's spatial extent that we can't codify (unintended consequences,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >externalities). And do contracts have higher order effects (extend to<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >descendants, siblings, business partners, etc.)? Designing a legal<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >system to align with the 5 basic principles above would, I think,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >produce something very unlike capitalism ... but maybe not whatever it<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >is the Marxists imagine would emerge.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> ><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >I'm sure the above is too vague. But it's the best I can do. As I tried<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >to make clear *I* have no idea what could replace capitalism. I don't<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >even understand socialism. Smarter people than me would have to work it<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >out.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> ><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> On May 7, 2021 10:43:35 PM PDT, Russ Abbott <<a href="mailto:russ.abbott%40gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >Further illustration of my ignorance in these areas.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> ><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >This discussion originated with the idea that we are oppressed by<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >capitalism and money. My question still is, what is the (or at least<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >*our*)<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >alternative? Can you imagine converting our society into one without<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >money?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >What could it possibly look like? Simply saying, *replace our culture<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >with<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >that of the Incas* doesn't help me to see any real alternative to where<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >we<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >are -- or a viable path from here to a non-monetary world.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> ><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >-- Russ Abbott<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >Professor, Computer Science<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> >California State University, Los Angeles<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> ><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> ><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> -- <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> glen ⛧<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div></div>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>
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