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<p class="MsoNormal">Russ writes:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gmaildefault"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">< It seems that the only solution might be to forgo even </span></span>balanced reciprocity <span class="gmaildefault"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">and
build a society of people who appreciate and are satisfied with whatever they get. This would be a world based on gratitude and selflessness rather than reciprocity.</span></span> ><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Easier if people stop believing in their agency.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Marcus <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Russ Abbott<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 11, 2021 9:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">I think davew is right. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gmaildefault"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Almost certainly </span></span><i><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">Money <b>IS NOT</b> the root
of all evil. <b>Evil IS </b>the root of all </span></i><span class="gmaildefault"><b><i><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">EVIL</span></i></b></span><span class="gmaildefault"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">
-- although it's not clear to me that </span></span><i><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">Evil <b>IS </b>the root of all money.</span></i><span class="gmaildefault"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"> </span></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">The biggest impediment to change is, in my opinion, the individual human being. To illustrate: consider that almost every 'religion', and certainly every 'major
religion'', (Islam, Buddhism, Vedism, Christianity), incorporate and extol principles of general and balanced reciprocity and yet those principles are absent from the vast majority of practitioners of those religions.</span></i><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">If every adherent of those religions was a true believer who both embodied and practiced those principles it probably would not matter if the world economic
system was capitalist, socialist, or other in format, because, in substance, it would be grounded on general and balanced reciprocity.</span></i><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gmaildefault"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Yet, </span></span><span class="gmaildefault"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">even in a utopian society of people
who all</span></span> embodied and practiced <span class="gmaildefault"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">the </span></span>principles<span class="gmaildefault"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> of balanced reciprocity,
it</span></span><span class="gmaildefault"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> would
<i>still </i>be a challenge to allocate goods, resources, and human effort in a way that satisfies everyone. </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gmaildefault"><i><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">It's unlikely that everyone would agree even with good-faith decisions made by davew's ideal people about what balances what.</span></i></span><i> </i><span class="gmaildefault"><i><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">How
would such disagreements be resolved?</span></i></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gmaildefault"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">It seems that the only solution might be to forgo even </span></span>balanced reciprocity <span class="gmaildefault"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">and
build a society of people who appreciate and are satisfied with whatever they get. This would be a world based on gratitude and selflessness rather than reciprocity.</span></span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- Russ <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 6:46 AM Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">The web of "economic relations" among human beings extends far beyond those that involve money. In some portions of that larger economy, the use of money is insulting (at best), often proscribed,
and definitely debasing. Think love, friendship, marriage, sex, .... Would it be possible for a multi-disciplinary team (psychologists, anthropologists, mystics/alchemists) to study those realms of the 'economy' and devise a 'system' of roles and relationships
that could comprise a 'system' useful in other aspects of the economy? Don't know.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Sometime ago I mentioned that anthropologists have identified three forms of exchange used by humans/cultures/societies: general, balanced, and negative. Market economies are, almost always,
a subset of negative but can/have been based on balanced reciprocity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Even a utopian non-monetary economy that remains at its core an instance of negative reciprocity will suffer from the exact same problems, and over time to the exact same degree, as capitalism
using abstract money. Money is a technology, block chain is a technology and simply substituting one for the other will resolve no fundamental issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Money <b>IS NOT</b> the root of all evil. Evil
<b>IS </b>the root of all money. Evil equals a combination of human individual venality and a system of negative reciprocity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Could it be otherwise? I doubt it. Examples of economies that are based on general and balanced reciprocity, internally at least, do not seem to have scaled above a ceiling of tens-to-hundreds
of thousands of participants. Could they grow larger, or be "nourished" in some fashion to enable scale? Don't know, but might be worth exploring.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">The biggest impediment to change is, in my opinion, the individual human being.To illustrate: consider that almost every 'religion', and certainly every 'major religion'', (Islam, Buddhism,
Vedism, Christianity), incorporate and extol principles of general and balanced reciprocity and yet those principles are absent from the the vast majority of practitioners of those religions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">If every adherent of of those religions was a true believer who both embodied and practiced those principles it probably would not matter if the world economic system was capitalist, socialist,
or other in format, because, in substance, it would be grounded on general and balanced reciprocity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">On Mon, May 10, 2021, at 1:58 PM, uǝlƃ
</span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">↙↙↙</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> On 5/10/21 12:10 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > • civilization is already a cooperative enterprise, it's just a matter of cooperation's extent/ubiquity<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > Agree. That's one of the reasons Trump's norm-breaking was so destructive.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > • there's nothing supernatural, so all solutions have to be built on science<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > Agree there is no supernatural. I don't see that implies that "all solutions have to be built on science." Most of our norms are not science-based.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> That's a reasonable point, as was Dave's w.r.t. belief in the <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> supernatural being an encoding for norms. But norms aren't good enough. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> What's needed is more like what EricS invoked way back when in the <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> context of economic mobility. We need an (maybe more than a few) error <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> correcting mechanisms for when the norms are shown inadequate or <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> obsolete. And it seems to me that scientific knowledge is the most <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> stable kind of knowledge. Not "stable" in the sense of never changing, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> but stable in the sense of being *founded* ... on solid ground. A <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> constitution is pretty good. But, again, our current problems with <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> "originalism" and "living document"-ism show explicitly how that can <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> fail.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > • innovation, technology, culture, etc. are limited only by nature; so in principle the things we build (including governments) can be as big and complex as the natural world<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > Is this controversial?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> Yes. On the one hand, there are credible arguments that the technology <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> "stack", as it were, increases degrees of freedom versus decreases <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> degrees of freedom. So, perhaps in the vein of von Hayek (and Pieter), <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> any bureaucracy we put in place might be, necessarily, a limiting <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> structure rather than a freeing structure. It would be arrogant to <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> assume an engineered structure does a better job at some objective than <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> a "natural" structure. This principle takes the stance that our <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> structures can increase the degrees of freedom.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > • class is a cultural construct; we create it; hence we can eliminate it<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > Is this controversial?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> Yes. There is a significant number of us who believe in meritocracy, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> where poverty can be an *indicator* for something you deserve ... even <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> to the extent that some people seem to believe you might have done that <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> in a *past life* or somesuch nonsense. This principle attempts a kind <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> of "blank slate" or "universally capable" conception of initial <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> conditions. The principle isn't well-worded, though, like the rest of <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> these. It partly implies that, e.g., if you're born blind, the world <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> and our society are complex enough so that you can be just as, if not <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> more, productive and meritorious as a sighted person.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > • the spectral signature of organization sizes is present in nature and should be mirrored in society (e.g. power laws for org sizes, small-world networks, etc) <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > Not sure what you mean by this. If you mean that it's important to be aware of advances in our understanding of complex organizations, I certainly agree. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> Yeah, I don't like the wording of that, either. What I'm going for is a <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> generalization of "to each according to need, from each according to <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> ability", which I don't like at all. I'd like to formulate more like <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> the definition of an "ecology", where the waste of one is the food for <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> another ... or along the lines of the eukaryotic perspective on trees <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> Roger forwarded.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> -- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> </span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">↙↙↙</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> uǝlƃ<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">
bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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