<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Thanks Steve, yes,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I did want to acknowledge some weeks ago, when you mentioned that you had a Leopold connection through your Father’s life and work. It is good to have another post to which I can respond, to acknowledge that you have been heard.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Eric</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jul 7, 2021, at 12:14 AM, Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" class="">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class=""><p class="">EricS -</p><p class="">Great and elaborate response to Merle's points/questions as
posited. I'm probably less versed in the jargon that you address
than you are, certainly after your dive into it for this
response. <br class="">
</p><p class="">Your reference to "Soil and Health" and Leopold's life's work
reminded me that my own father was trained up (as much as anyone
might be) in the 40's into the 50's on the best ecological
understanding of the time, ultimately in pursuit of Forest and
Range Management (USDA/USFS style) and conveyed to me the
underlying structure/dynamics of a "circular ecology", yet somehow
this eluded him entirely when he embraced Reagan's "trickle down"
economics in the 80s. He went on to be a Rush Limbaugh and
Fox/Faux News fan. What would Aldo think of all that? The tie
between ecology and economy is so evident that perhaps it is easy
to miss?</p><p class="">I liked particularly your point about the Buddhist premise that
"misery is not a goal". When I first heard of a "donut" economy,
my mind went straight to a torus, not an annulus, and imputed lots
of possible complex structures elaborating "circular" into things
like helices on the surface of a torus. Alas, I was
overthinking. I *don't* know what to think about your
observation (assertion) that our human population may well exceed
the carrying capacity *even* on the inner boundary of the
annulus. For me this, suggests that we are not thinking smart
enough. I don't dispute that human population has risen to an
extravagant level and that we may well be simply overwhelming the
petri dish that is the earth systems. <br class="">
</p><p class="">What I want to explore is whether our first world,
high-technology view of "minimum necessary for comfort" is biased
toward fundamentally usurious/exploitative sub-systems? I drive
an EV (2011 Chevy Volt) because I was raised in a car-culture
which takes it for granted that a 200+ lb human needs a 3000-6000
lb shell of steel and glass wrapped around them while they hurtle
through the air at 60+mph for 10 or 20 or 50 miles each way to go
to work or fetch a quart of milk. I take for granted that the
electric grid (in my case operated by Jemez Valley Electric Coop
that came to be *after* WWII) is an infinite source of power for
me to draw from *to* provide motive force (and AC/Heat/Stereo) to
hurtle along with the greatest of ease. I often ignore the fact
that said Electric Grid spins turbines in a dam just upriver from
me in Abiquiu Lake, lowering the water levels even more than
perhaps irrigation alone would require. Even more acutely, my
suck on the grid spins turbines in the coal-fired plant in the 4
corners area, spewing sulfurous smoke and CO2 into the already
overburdened atmosphere. Some here (and many elsewhere) will
insist that we have not *begun* to load the atmosphere/biosphere
overmuch, but *most* scientists will disagree strongly with that
position. Yet, I glibly treat the 40 miles of range my (extended
range) EV gives me as "free lunch". I sometimes make up an
excuse to run to the store, just to run the batteries down so I
can refill them overnight for *more free lunch*. Tell that to
the people living under the cloud of smoke, or experiencing the
subsidence of the land from the water drawn to sluice the coal
from Kayenta to Kaipowarowitz, etc. <br class="">
</p><p class="">I also grow a few vegetables in my sunroom/backyard and keep a
few chickens to turn my ragweed into high-quality egg-protein...
but I *still* purchase an inestimable amount of food (and other)
products at my local grocery which definitely doesn't source
locally. I'm sucking as hard at the California Central Valley
aquifer as I am at the one under Kayenta, AZ. And the plastic
accretion in the Pacific Gyre? I doubt I am clean of that
either. For every 1000 grocery bags I return to the store or
stuff neatly inside one another before sending to the landfill, at
least one probably finds it's way there. And if not there, it is
surely caught on the barbed wire of a fence somewhere nearby. I
see them all the time... I'm *sure* they are *somebody else's*
trash, not mine!</p><p class="">Regarding the solutions we have spent centuries (millennia) to
build, I'm very much with you. The genome does not discard old
tricks easily... they may disappear entirely through some kind
of attrition via disuse, but little is discarded, no matter how
much is redacted or elided from use in any given epoch. This is
why I'm a fan of alternative wisdoms (vaguely similar to DaveW's
position perhaps)... whether it is the Eastern portfolio
(Taoism, Confusionism, Vedism, Buddhism, etc) or the Ibrahamics
and their precursors (Zoroaster anyone?) or the divine Feminine or
the myriad Pantheons of yore. I'm not a crystal-gazer by any
means, but that does not mean I can entirely dismiss the myriad
ideas and perspectives that come from the (presumed) fringe.</p><p class="">I also appreciate your point about "development", but with the
ever-standing caveat of "developing what" and "toward what
goal/end/values?". I contend that Science is about "asking the
right question" ever so much more than "finding the best
answer". We are on the cusp of (yet another)
reformulation/refactoring of many of the questions we thought were
"the right ones". In the 80's for example, my engineering brain
was busy noodling on how/whether our fossil-fuel economy could
achieve zero net pollution by somehow magically transforming HC
chains and atmospheric O2 into pure H2O and CO2. Surely someone
besides Exxon knew that releasing all that dinosaur juice into the
atmosphere was going to lead to global-scale problems? I was
blithely (belligerently) not-listening until at least a decade or
two after I *could* have heard the early warning system going
off. After our visit to Sweden in 2019, I was taken by Tomas
Bjorkland's (Iskaret Institute) writings, including "the Nordic
Secret" which by title sounded like some kind of Nazi apologism,
but instead turned out to be a glimpse into what "cultural
development" through "individual development" might look like.
I don't think it is "the answer", but as "an answer" it might
gesture toward "the right question" regarding individual/cultural
development. <br class="">
</p><p class="">A strong complementary perspective to the myriad variants of our
"economies" is the "gratitude economy" as demonstrated through
hundreds of anecdotes, personal and cultural, in Robin Wall
Kimmerer's writings (in particular <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17465709-braiding-sweetgrass" class="">Braiding
Sweetgrass</a>). Instead of exchanging goods and services based
on a sense of "what is in it for me", she outlines a perspective
of "I've already recieved my gift from the
world/universe/community, what can I give back in return out of
gratitude" vs the variations on straight bartering, or keeping
ledgers or exchanging tokens of IOU/UoweMe valuation.</p><p class="">I loved the imagery of Locke and Hume escorting Melville's
ship. It is relevant that Melville's work represents the "first
oil boom" which presaged (and was a precursor to) the fossil fuel
boom that fueled and lubricated the modern industrial revolution.</p><p class="">- Steve<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/5/21 3:57 PM, David Eric Smith
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:3421CDC1-EF30-4C73-808D-11E41EBB3BED@santafe.edu" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
Hi Merle,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The terms you cite are not jargon for me so I will
lack the familiarity with the social circle that uses them today
that you have.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The priorities under the name “circular economy”
sound like things I know through readings like Sir Albert
Howard’s The Soil and Health, which Howard structures around
what he calls “the law of return”, or points made by Aldo
Leopold in A Sand County Almanac. The feeds I have had on this
come mainly through people at the Leopold Center for sustainable
ag at Iowa State, which the Rs finally managed to completely cut
off from any public support in 2017, effectively killing it off
after many decades in which it was a paradigm maker. In some
sense one would consider this the commonsense foundation of all
understanding of ecology, and the premise that any long-term
sustainable economy must have this aspect of ecological design.
So I tend to take these as a common starting point for
discussion, and want to get to the places we get snagged of
stuck, which keep us from following them out.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">On Doughnut, I see from Wikipedia the paper for
Oxfam from which the term was coined. The parts of that that I
think I have spent the most time on are the steady-staters, like
Herman Daly (who is the Doyen as far as it has been presented to
me) and then later-generation followers of mostly-Herman’s
ideas, like Joshua Farley or Peter Victor. But I think there is
a very large community of steady-staters now, and all of them
would also take as their premise the start in planetary
boundaries. I think they also would follow a sort of Buddhist
practicality that misery is not a goal; one wants enough
sustenance to not be in material desperation as a starting
point, though with too-large population even the realizability
of that becomes debatable.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I tend not to prefer throwing out things that took
centuries to build, as solutions to other problems that we
forget when we no longer live under them, as beyond reform and
incorrigible. (RBG’s throwing away the umbrella because you are
not getting wet.) I won’t use keywords like Bretton Woods
because I lack the depth to understand the implications that go
into them in the current political discourse. But education for
skills, including difficult, narrow, or abstract ones, is
something that I think contributes to a good life and not
something I want to lose. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If I had to summarize my own view of the goal and
the problem, I would probably start by saying there are three
resources available (referring to individual people) but needing
investment to develop: talent, character, and preparation. To
really get the best life and community out of talent, we need
large diversity of opportunities at all stages, because talent
undiscovered through experience never even has a chance to get
developed. Then we also need many choice-points to change
tracks, so that talents that can get recognized in any of the
vast diversity of areas where people could have them can then be
followed out. Character and community and those things are
probably not so much in need of system design, as of cultural
reinforcement along lines that are broadly appreciated in
long-standing traditional discourse. Preparation requires
design of whole life-course pipelines, and that again is an
institutional matter. It is good to recognize that talents and
character have independent existence from preparation, but would
be very wrong to suppose that preparation doesn’t matter.
Trying to affirmative-action our way to some better solution at
a few points in higher ed, in a society that creates vastly
unequal opportunities across the whole developmental course,
limits the best outcomes we can get. It reminds me of using
medications to manage diabetes and heart disease, rather than
having a life and a diet that don’t create those diseases in the
first place. The medications are better than morbidity and
mortality, but a long life of medicated ill-health is not what
we should settle for. The universities try to reach back and
support other ed levels here and there, which again counts for
something. But ultimately what is required is a public
commitment, and the universities alone are too small to have
control over what needs to be moved.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In looking at the reviews to the two books on
Meritocracy, I felt like I was back in Moby Dick, reading
Melville’s summary of Locke and Hume as two whales on either
side of the ship. Would be good to read them both. Would be
good to have breathing space to read anything….</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Eric</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jul 6, 2021, at 6:06 AM, Merle Lefkoff <<a href="mailto:merlelefkoff@gmail.com" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">merlelefkoff@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">David, you have
highlighted education as a problem to "solve" within
our present economic system. It's too late to "fix"
the Bretton Woods system. We have to build a new one,
which opens up many adjacent possibilities that are
now beyond reach. What do you think about the new
models (not really new but possibly transitional) like
the "Circular economy" or the "Doughnut economy"?</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"> ideas</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at
1:02 PM David Eric Smith <<a href="mailto:desmith@santafe.edu" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">desmith@santafe.edu</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class="">Merle,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">From what I have read or heard, the
return in benefit per cost for social mobility is
much higher for community colleges than for even
state-school university-style higher-ed, and their
costs have (I think) remained fairly contained.
So if we were to ask where we could spend money
now and help a lot without the delays and
wrestling of a system restructure, that seems to
be a sure one.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I was concerned that for higher ed as
for medical stuff, public funding is only
achievable sustainably if it is done together with
reduction of costs. This was what bothered me in
the sound-bite level descriptions during the
presidential campaigns, though as I understand
e.g. Sanders’s current position, he is advocating
for community colleges at least for now, so
reasonable. I am reluctant to support public
payment of a thoroughly corrupted system, because
that just ratifies and bankrolls it, which is
where we have been in agriculture for so many
decades. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">EricC’s note was for me very helpful,
but it throws me back into a confusion. If
need-based aid is the main driver of cost
inflation, and the need-based aid is what we are
trying to keep, then what are the elements we can
change to remove needless costs? I think back to
the fact that I paid about 12k/year as an
undergrad, in the middle 1980s, for an education
that was arguably as good as could be had anywhere
in the world. I had 2k/year scholarships through
my mother’s company, which seemed a lot to me (as
a kid from nowhere who knew nothing), and I could
earn 3k in a summer doing simple technical work
for a land surveyor. Add another 4k/year in
loans, and the remainder was a payment my parents
could afford. (I remember, though, years of rage
by my father toward the end of my high school,
when he was terrified it would be an amount he
could not afford.) When I read that state schools
are routinely costing 65k/year sticker price, and
the private non-profits even worse, I don’t know
how to get my head around what-all has been built
in such a different way that it drives all those
costs but seems an inoperable disease, infused
throughout the patient. Some is just dollar
value-reduction, but when I hear about a whole
generation of kids coming out of school with
hundreds of k$ loans, it seems completely
incomparable to the 12-13k I had, with deferred
interest accrual, and which I could pay back out
of a graduate TA stipend if I was very frugal, by
about the time I got out of grad school. So I
didn’t even end up paying an interest overhead on
it. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I would be dismayed to see the
discussion go back into the conventional
sound-bites of “too much regulation”, though I
believe most university administrators will assert
that is a large source. I don’t rule out that
regulatory bloat and bad design is a problem,
though I am inclined to view it more as I would
view software bloat and bad design: we understand
what priorities drive it, but that doesn’t mean
either that there isn’t a need for some kinds, nor
does it imply that under different priorities it
could be done better.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Would be good to see a nuts-and-bolts
comparison of system elements across countries, to
see what can be different and how cost and
performance are affected by each change.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Eric</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jul 6, 2021, at 4:14 AM,
Merle Lefkoff <<a href="mailto:merlelefkoff@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">merlelefkoff@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Am
I the only one who thinks all higher
education (before grad school--and maybe
even that too) should be free in a rich
democratic (sort of) society? I'm not
sure how to avoid the issue of who gets
to go--merit is the sticky wicket. I
also think we need to re-institute the
draft. Both of these initiatives might
help to even things out.</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon,
Jul 5, 2021 at 10:38 AM Barry MacKichan
<<a href="mailto:barry.mackichan@mackichan.com" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">barry.mackichan@mackichan.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:sans-serif" class="">
<div style="white-space:normal" class=""><p dir="auto" class="">I can
endorse both Sandel’s <em class="">Tyrrany of Merit</em>
and Wilkerson’s <em class="">Caste</em>.
Also I highly recommend
Wilkerson’s earlier book, <em class="">The Warmth of Other
Suns</em> about the great
migration in the early 20th
century of blacks from the south
to the north and California. An
interesting factoid is how
important Lordsburg was to those
going to California.</p><p dir="auto" class="">I haven’t
decided what to <em class="">do</em>
with the knowledge I got from
these books, but it is hard to
ignore it.</p><p dir="auto" class="">—Barry</p><p dir="auto" class="">On 2 Jul
2021, at 21:33, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" style="color:rgb(57,131,196)" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(119,119,119);color:rgb(119,119,119);margin:0px
0px 5px;padding-left:5px" class="">
<div id="gmail-m_4633321903670590337gmail-m_6929139786489886351B001E661-64D8-4103-9558-B476519A4D55" class="">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="" lang="EN-US">
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">EricS, </div><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">Have you looked
at Sandel’s <b class=""><i class="">Tyranny of
Merit</i></b> or
Wilkerson’s <b class=""><i class="">Caste</i></b>?</div><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">If on thinks hard
enough about “merit” it
becomes deeply confusing.
The idea of Merit is
something that I got on my
own, right? So working
back from now to birth
whence exactly did I get
that merit. Even what I
got from my genes was
random right. At what
point do get to embrace my
merit as of my own
making? So far as me,
myself, is concerned, it’s
all luck all the way down.
That is what the
declaration of
independence means when it
says that all [humans] are
created equal. </div><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">Nick</div><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">Nick Thompson</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)" class="">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,JGErGkFl3ZxOjIrrCAWIDis3A-4siD3v0vD4Vy5pAIDRs0ZmqGQayWNy46xHObGTWmcFkB_B1O7Xgwn2h6Yw1GzH_9o1oPAfEBH2Zuhg-y-OT5fkrEZbplU,&typo=1" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)" class="">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></div>
</div><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
<div class="">
<div style="border-style:solid
none
none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt
0in 0in" class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""><b class="">From:</b>
Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b class="">On Behalf
Of </b>David Eric
Smith<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b>
Friday, July 2, 2021
7:47 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b>
The Friday Morning
Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b>
Re: [FRIAM] of straw
and steel</div>
</div>
</div><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">I think there is
some version of this for
college tuitions, too,
though I am partly
muddy-headed and what I
say next will probably
fail the logical map at
some points.</div>
<div class=""><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">The general
idea is some combination
of what is in Ginsberg’s
book</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Faculty-Benjamin-Ginsberg/dp/0199975434" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Faculty-Benjamin-Ginsberg/dp/0199975434</a></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">but even more
so in some article I
read in J. Higher Ed or
something (which I have
not succeeded in finding
and I need now for other
projects), to the effect
that:</div>
</div>
<div class=""><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">1. There is
been a massive
cumulative re-allocation
of money out of
need-based grants and to
merit-based scholarships
over the past 40 years
or so.</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">2. Sounds
good, of course: who
could be against
rewarding merit.</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">3. Except
that, de facto, what
one largely rewards is
preparation, which is
a proxy for parental
wealth and membership
in one of the
culture’s preferred
classes, races,
regions, or
what-have-you. The
part of this that I am
pretty sure is in
Ginsberg is also
fishing for parental
wealth by building
snazzy student
centers, on-campus
water parks, etc. All
that at enormous
cost. The punchline
of all this is that
WHEN THE BUSINESSMEN
TAKE OVER THE CONCEPT
OF THE UNIVERSITY, THE
UNIVERSITY BECOMES A
BUSINESS. So, monies
spent, such as tuition
deferment whether
called grant or
scholarships, is in
their worldview
VENTURE CAPITAL.
(That was what was in
the JHE article.) And
the return that
venture capital is
seeking is parental
tuition money.</div>
</div>
<div class=""><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">So how does
this map to Glen’s
EricC’s comments: The
nominal tuition is
very high (4x what it
was in the 1970s, per
faculty actually
teaching or doing
research). That high
tuition isn’t actually
cost-received from
most parents, because
a significant fraction
of it was spent either
giving their kids
scholarships, building
water parks and
student centers, or
whatever. However: if
they had given it in
need-based grants,
they wouldn’t be
getting _anything_
from the parents. So
in the businessman’s
world, the investment
gathered a maximized
monetary profit, which
was the criterion for
how to make it. </div>
</div>
<div class=""><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">As in EricC’s
point below, there
will be some very rich
parents with kids so
lazy or dull that they
aren’t well-prepared
even with
opportunities, so one
can’t give them
scholarships, and
those will pay the
sticker price. Those
are the ones who buy
the article at $19, or
medical products or
services at list
price. High profit
but small margin on
them.</div>
</div>
<div class=""><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
</div>
<div class=""><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">In all the
recent and ongoing
conversations about
tuition jubilee or
free college in the
US, I worry that
everything real and
solvable gets ruled
out before we ever
start, because the
above characterization
of the real business
model isn’t front and
center. Not very
different for medical
products and services
(I am trying not to
use the completely
bleached expression
“health care”), though
that has been around
long enough that a
fuller story is not so
uncommon to find.</div>
</div>
<div class=""><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">It is right
that we have mortgaged
a whole generation of
kids with unplayable
tuition loans, and
probably somebody
should eat that cost.
Kind of like when
German banks bought
junk mortgage bonds in
the US, they should
actually have been
allowed to fail for
having not done due
diligence, rather than
being bailed out by a
government that then
had to get the money
to float them by
leaning on somebody
else (the Irish, the
Italians). That of
course doesn’t really
work for the reasons
correctly given in
Minsky’s Ratchet</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Stabilizing-Unstable-Economy-Hyman-Minsky/dp/0071592997" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.amazon.com/Stabilizing-Unstable-Economy-Hyman-Minsky/dp/0071592997</a></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">But the
threat of it somehow
should be used, while
the problem is
building, to keep the
banks doing due
diligence, and to stop
the schools from
hiking tuition and
spending to profit on
the margin, or medical
products and services
skyrocketing as a
negotiating point
against insurance
companies, etc. The
system either gets
fixed as a system, or
not at all.</div>
</div>
<div class=""><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">There must be
a really great book
somewhere, which gets
the data and the
economics better than
I can, and also
explains this clearly
enough that it can be
an everyman’s book.
It’s messy and a bait
indirect, but it’s not
so hard as to be
incomprehensible.
Does anybody know such
a book? </div>
</div>
<div class=""><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">Eric</div>
</div>
<div class=""><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">On Jul 3,
2021, at 5:51 AM,
Eric Charles <<a href="mailto:eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
</div><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">Something
Glen's
analysis, there
are MANY things
in the modern
economy that fit
things model,
including
healthcare. </div>
<div class=""><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">The
insurance
companies
demand a steep
discount in
procedures.</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">The
hospital's
have costs to
cover. </div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">The
only possible
consequence is
to
dramatically
increase the
sticker
price. There
hospital
doesn't expect
someone to pay
that much for
a major
procedure,
they expect
bulk buyers
(i.e.,
insurance
companies) to
drive buisness
at ther bulk
price. (If
some random
person does
pay sticker
price every so
often, all
the better,
but that's not
ther primary
goal.) </div>
</div>
<div class=""><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">Mattress
companies,
clothing
stores, etc.
that have
massive sales
3/4th of the
year are doing
the same sort
of thing. </div>
</div>
<div class=""><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">See
also my
continuous
complaints
about the "Big
Mac Index".
Only a small %
of Big Macs in
the U.S. are
purchased at
sicker price.
The sticker
price is
primarily
intended as
something to
discount off
of. </div>
</div>
</div><p style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class=""> </p>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">On
Wed, Jun 30,
2021, 10:56 AM
uǝlƃ <span style="font-family:"Segoe
UI
Symbol",sans-serif" class="">☤</span>>$
<<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none
none none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in
0in 0in
6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" class="">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;margin:0px" class="">Maybe.
But remember,
despite the
prescriptive
linguists out
there: a)
"troll" is not
an insult and
b) it can be
accidental.<br class="">
<br class="">
All 3 of Russ'
"people with
grants",
Barry's "rent
seeking", and
Pieter's
"publishing
profits are
bad for
science"
responses are
a trawler's
delight!
Rather than
talk about the
Strawman
fallacy and
it's
variations,
we're talking
... [sigh]
again ...
about
capitalism and
money.<br class="">
<br class="">
Call it
naivete if you
want. But it
was a very
effective
troll.<br class="">
<br class="">
On 6/30/21
7:47 AM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>
wrote:<br class="">
> Oh, I
see. The
point is to
make getting
the individual
item so
expensive that
it just
balances
driving to the
library (or
doing ILL)
with
subscribing to
the Journal.
It's pure
manipulation;
costs have
nothing to do
with it. <br class="">
> <br class="">
> Glen, I
think you
persistently
confuse
naivete with
trolling. <br class="">
<br class="">
-- <br class="">
<span style="font-family:"Segoe
UI
Symbol",sans-serif" class="">☤</span>>$
uǝlƃ<br class="">
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<div class="">Merle Lefkoff,
Ph.D.<br class="">
Center for Emergent
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FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,zZR_T72mBSjwiPEb7Yr003Dhg-de_5rRfhYyfSEyUc2qy1mOMa9ARQqd93tQ7D1n4EPS6C3IizNwadxBkUIkatZCzt74O9_JJqnxZdvN7XXQhd2lgag0KDMplTM,&typo=1" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,zZR_T72mBSjwiPEb7Yr003Dhg-de_5rRfhYyfSEyUc2qy1mOMa9ARQqd93tQ7D1n4EPS6C3IizNwadxBkUIkatZCzt74O9_JJqnxZdvN7XXQhd2lgag0KDMplTM,&typo=1</a><br class="">
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FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,PDxQ6WowsV6z00xl-T5OMUAm-OOKYVUVI4apduVJlkZzcrzEcPXsgwBHi0E6MX_wDMaYYgmD8vdVCHuMQzxHvM099rjAqN3q5kP7pEKwO5SYVl9q&typo=1" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br class="">
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<div class="">Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.<br class="">
Center for Emergent Diplomacy<br class="">
<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2femergentdiplomacy.org&c=E,1,S81-32Dgjhy9fgsxBHE-7PLI4WBSmUgF5T2vwewp4AjGdGXrrjIW35T8UoRDeO00ecoorpGDiW_8o5_EqAL7T_ovguIfcpPZQLFuWYk_YgC-WVoJNJPY&typo=1" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">emergentdiplomacy.org</a></div>
<div class="">Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA</div>
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mobile: (303) 859-5609<br class="">
skype: merle.lelfkoff2<br class="">
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<div class="">twitter: @merle110<br class="">
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FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,7fYbAlnfK9A49jHw1MPvHX03zMCYXgPo-Wpwi7jO-xS1Lz8nYTA7cSPjXD7Y8UkRLhGLszUG9pReSRQmk1cscS2EL81jBRM4Ae-YPuoBJWLYMQ,,&typo=1" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,7fYbAlnfK9A49jHw1MPvHX03zMCYXgPo-Wpwi7jO-xS1Lz8nYTA7cSPjXD7Y8UkRLhGLszUG9pReSRQmk1cscS2EL81jBRM4Ae-YPuoBJWLYMQ,,&typo=1</a><br class="">
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" class="">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
un/subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,07iB39ZVIKgC_oF4aba977OPAT3A3cF-_Njl2707JQeleVOfSq504CtVXWQJF1d81YQb5vzGmdpAQRzIcC4fDKWfXxBOyFbJ2CzgqUMVjJsHyxoB-NEevLjc&typo=1">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,PHjtg2uGPqFMMk03qyWjDJTEnVglRuOoRvfwKMmI4A177OS23IlB3mqEKoqwPQjoT3-aof5CJ3YSzB2MSMq-BX9WozeXTjwu1-4YRMgEjZo,&typo=1">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a>
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- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br class="">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br class="">Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" class="">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br class="">un/subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,rAuEWAj3abpxVYv7Aij2BDdGa56xgEothNl5zcb1QL8lfuxLJIy0jsG2MZYw9FccNmlhF_RSZa88Mw1ngTZQVbLAnaQ90iPcQGr_8A2KhfFSrBQLShJZ-KqdyWYX&typo=1" class="">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,rAuEWAj3abpxVYv7Aij2BDdGa56xgEothNl5zcb1QL8lfuxLJIy0jsG2MZYw9FccNmlhF_RSZa88Mw1ngTZQVbLAnaQ90iPcQGr_8A2KhfFSrBQLShJZ-KqdyWYX&typo=1</a><br class="">FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,o4c0StIAh1H2uNEOpW27KAL-m1S9HzJI1iusYi2BERk-gG8JqQa_3uxKiRr-mHD0VWJr8oq__fZCdFnEwXjPkjr_8sJARFZT-TjqoqO50Lg,&typo=1" class="">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,o4c0StIAh1H2uNEOpW27KAL-m1S9HzJI1iusYi2BERk-gG8JqQa_3uxKiRr-mHD0VWJr8oq__fZCdFnEwXjPkjr_8sJARFZT-TjqoqO50Lg,&typo=1</a><br class="">archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" class="">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>