<div dir="auto">More reading<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3515378/">https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3515378/</a><br><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br>140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>Santa Fe, NM 87505<br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Aug 15, 2021, 12:09 PM Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div>
    <p>To the extent that many of our individual conditions often
      described as dis-ease are manifestations of a more
      spiritual-social-emotional-psychological dis-ease, it shouldn't
      surprise us that "woo" which addresses (at different levels, and
      different modes) the latter dis-ease might relieve the symptoms. 
      <br>
    </p>
    <p> I don't think many argue these days that animal immune responses
      are modulated significantly by the organism's level of stress,
      etc.   The term "Placebo" often gets a pretty negative
      connotation, yet I think most also accept that when it works, it
      works and one would not want to remove "the placebo effect" from
      someone's prevention, recovery or maintenance regimen.<br>
    </p>
    <p>I am personally offended by the psuedoscientific presentation of
      lots of "woo", but I see how invoking lasers and vibrational
      energies and long concatenated latin names of compounds and
      concoctions can be very comforting to those whose only
      understanding of "Science" is that it has magical/mystical
      properties.</p>
    <p>This also, of course, allows the same people (or similar) to
      dismiss anything labeled "Science" as and elitist charade designed
      to bamboozle them into doing clearly dumb things like having
      "stuff" injected into them (like bleach or perhaps something with
      a mercury compound)?   <br>
    </p>
    <p>From Roger's due diligence, I am left to believe that Ivermectin
      has never been particularly validated for anything, though Nick's
      reference seems to imply it might be useful against parasites.  I
      understand Hydroxychloroquine to have been used widely in
      developing (equatorial) countries as an antiviral (in particular
      Malaria) but with widely varying and harsh side-effects which in
      those contexts might be well worth the risk.   <br>
    </p>
    <p>I'm interested to see the meta-narrative continue to evolve
      around  Science and Pseudoscience or some variation of that.   It
      is easy do dismiss one and embrace the other, and on the surface,
      that is valid, but it feels to me as if there is something much
      deeper and more subtle and perhaps more broadly important going
      on, especially if we are nearing the twilight of the Anthropocene,
      going into a long-dark night of our own making *with* various
      parts Science and Pseudoscience?</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      
      
      <div>
        <p class="MsoNormal">How about Reiki?<u></u><u></u></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/04/reiki-cant-possibly-work-so-why-does-it/606808/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Does Reiki Work? - The Atlantic</a><u></u><u></u></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
            <a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
            </b>Roger Critchlow<br>
            <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, August 15, 2021 10:00 AM<br>
            <b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
            Group <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
            <b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope<u></u><u></u></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Oh, forgot to clearly identify the
            irony:   ;-)<u></u><u></u></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Doing diligence on this crap is way
              exhausting.  I am entirely in sympathy with your dilemma.<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Even if ivermectin does nothing useful,
              it still may be a useful treatment in situations where no
              other treatment is available.  And fabricating evidence of
              its efficacy would also be a comfort to the patients and
              the medical staff in that situation.   A placebo can be
              better than nothing, a placebo with a bogus story behind
              it can be even better.<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">-- rec --<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">-- rec --<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
        <div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 12:37 PM Roger
              Critchlow <<a href="mailto:rec@elf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">rec@elf.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">Pieter --<u></u><u></u></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">I looked over the links you
                  listed.  <u></u><u></u></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">They seem to claim that
                  withdrawl of ivermectin caused the spike in Covid
                  cases in India, and also that administering ivermectin
                  caused the end of the spike in Covid cases.    Both of
                  these claims are sort of hard to evaluate, since I
                  don't see any evidence that anyone has ever
                  distributed ivermectin/doxycycline/zinc kits very
                  widely, either before or after the spike in
                  infections.  Constructing and delivering kits for
                  1.366 billion people would have been quite an
                  achievement for any economy.  <u></u><u></u></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">I followed the links to <a href="https://c19ivermectin.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://c19ivermectin.com/</a>
                  and found the list of ivermectin studies.  The list
                  presented currently claims 110 studies, 68 peer
                  reviewed, 64 involving control and treatment groups,
                  but it's puffed up with another 50 entries which are
                  news clippings, press releases, meta-analyses,
                  reviews, and other miscellanea.<u></u><u></u></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">I looked an early review article, <a href="https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-020-0336-z.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-020-0336-z.pdf</a>,
                  though the pdf is hosted at
                  <a href="http://nature.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">nature.com</a>, it's from a
                  different journal.<u></u><u></u></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
              </div>
              <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
                <p class="MsoNormal">The Journal of Antibiotics (2020)
                  73:593–602 <a href="https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
                    https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z</a><br>
                  Ivermectin: a systematic review from antiviral effects
                  to COVID-19 complementary regimen Fatemeh Heidary1 ●
                  Reza Gharebaghi2,3<br>
                  1 Head of Ophthalmology Division, Taleghani Hospital,
                  Ahvaz Jundishapur University of Medical Sciences,
                  Ahvaz, Iran <br>
                  2 Kish International Campus, University of Tehran,
                  Tehran, Iran <br>
                  3 International Virtual Ophthalmic Research Center
                  (IVORC), Austin, TX, USA<br>
                  Abstract <br>
                  Ivermectin proposes many potentials effects to treat a
                  range of diseases, with its antimicrobial, antiviral,
                  and anti-cancer properties as a wonder drug. It is
                  highly effective against many microorganisms including
                  some viruses. In this comprehensive systematic review,
                  antiviral effects of ivermectin are summarized
                  including in vitro and in vivo studies over the past
                  50 years. Several studies reported antiviral effects
                  of ivermectin on RNA viruses such as Zika, dengue,
                  yellow fever, West Nile, Hendra, Newcastle, Venezuelan
                  equine encephalitis, chikungunya, Semliki Forest,
                  Sindbis, Avian influenza A, Porcine Reproductive and
                  Respiratory Syndrome, Human immunodeficiency virus
                  type 1, and severe acute respiratory syndrome
                  coronavirus 2. Furthermore, there are some studies
                  showing antiviral effects of ivermectin against DNA
                  viruses such as Equine herpes type 1, BK polyomavirus,
                  pseudorabies, porcine circovirus 2, and bovine
                  herpesvirus 1. Ivermmust beectin plays a role in
                  several biological mechanisms, therefore it could
                  serve as a potential candidate in the treatment of a
                  wide range of viruses including COVID-19 as well as
                  other types of positive-sense single-stranded RNA
                  viruses. In vivo studies of animal models revealed a
                  broad range of antiviral effects of ivermectin,
                  however, clinical trials are necessary to appraise the
                  potential efficacy of ivermectin in clinical setting<u></u><u></u></p>
              </blockquote>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">The quick read is that ivermectin
                  interferes with viral reproduction
                  <i>in vitro</i>, but fails to work <i>in vivo</i>,
                  for all of these viruses.  It's been tried against
                  every virus that's turned up in the last 50 years, had
                  some
                  <i>in vitro</i> anti-viral activity, but never became
                  an approved treatment for any of them.  <u></u><u></u></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">It must be that the elites are
                  consipring.  That's the only reasonable explanation
                  for the facts.<u></u><u></u></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">-- rec --<u></u><u></u></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 2:28 AM
                  Pieter Steenekamp <<a href="mailto:pieters@randcontrols.co.za" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">pieters@randcontrols.co.za</a>>
                  wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
              </div>
              <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Nick, <br>
                    <br>
                    Thanks for pointing out that my message is not very
                    clear. Let me rewrite it with a change in wording, I
                    hope it's better this time.<br>
                    <br>
                    I believe that the study that Marcus referred to
                    above ,  <a href="https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid</a>   ,
                    is most probably correct.<u></u><u></u></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Help me if I'm wrong. It proves
                      that according to a specific protocol, there are
                      no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin.
                      Does that mean that there are no other prophylaxis
                      protocols that include ivermectin that do give
                      benefits?<br>
                      <br>
                      I'd like to make sense of what's happening in
                      India. According to some (see references below),
                      the use of ivermectin is effective against covid
                      in India. I really don't know how reliable these
                      sources are. Does anyone have better information?
                      I'd like to know. <br>
                      <br>
                      References:<u></u><u></u></p>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
                        <a href="https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf</a><u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">Pieter<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 23:13,
                      <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
                      wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">Pieter<u></u><u></u></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">Did
                          you perhaps leave out a link?  Which study?<u></u><u></u></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">Nick
                          Thompson<u></u><u></u></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><span style="color:#0563c1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><span style="color:#0563c1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                        <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b>
                            Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
                            <b>On Behalf Of </b>Pieter Steenekamp<br>
                            <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 14, 2021 12:09
                            PM<br>
                            <b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied
                            Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
                            <b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope<u></u><u></u></p>
                        </div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">I
                            believe this study is most probably
                            correct. <br>
                            <br>
                            Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that
                            according to a specific protocol, there are
                            no benefits against covid  in using
                            ivermectin. Does that mean that there are no
                            other prophylaxis protocols that include
                            ivermectin that do give benefits?<br>
                            <br>
                            I'd like to make sense of what's happening
                            in India. According to some (see reference
                            below), the use of ivermectin is effective
                            against covid in India. I really don't know
                            how reliable these sources are. Does anyone
                            have better information? I'd like to know. <br>
                            <br>
                            References:<u></u><u></u></p>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/</a><br>
                              <a href="https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf</a><br>
                              <a href="https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">Pieter<u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal">On
                              Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 17:34, Marcus Daniels
                              <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
                              wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
                          </div>
                          <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><a href="https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid</a><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal">-
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                          </blockquote>
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                      .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>
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                  </blockquote>
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                  ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>
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              </blockquote>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset></fieldset>
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
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</blockquote></div>