<div dir="auto">More reading<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3515378/">https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3515378/</a><br><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br>140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>Santa Fe, NM 87505<br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Aug 15, 2021, 12:09 PM Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>To the extent that many of our individual conditions often
described as dis-ease are manifestations of a more
spiritual-social-emotional-psychological dis-ease, it shouldn't
surprise us that "woo" which addresses (at different levels, and
different modes) the latter dis-ease might relieve the symptoms.
<br>
</p>
<p> I don't think many argue these days that animal immune responses
are modulated significantly by the organism's level of stress,
etc. The term "Placebo" often gets a pretty negative
connotation, yet I think most also accept that when it works, it
works and one would not want to remove "the placebo effect" from
someone's prevention, recovery or maintenance regimen.<br>
</p>
<p>I am personally offended by the psuedoscientific presentation of
lots of "woo", but I see how invoking lasers and vibrational
energies and long concatenated latin names of compounds and
concoctions can be very comforting to those whose only
understanding of "Science" is that it has magical/mystical
properties.</p>
<p>This also, of course, allows the same people (or similar) to
dismiss anything labeled "Science" as and elitist charade designed
to bamboozle them into doing clearly dumb things like having
"stuff" injected into them (like bleach or perhaps something with
a mercury compound)? <br>
</p>
<p>From Roger's due diligence, I am left to believe that Ivermectin
has never been particularly validated for anything, though Nick's
reference seems to imply it might be useful against parasites. I
understand Hydroxychloroquine to have been used widely in
developing (equatorial) countries as an antiviral (in particular
Malaria) but with widely varying and harsh side-effects which in
those contexts might be well worth the risk. <br>
</p>
<p>I'm interested to see the meta-narrative continue to evolve
around Science and Pseudoscience or some variation of that. It
is easy do dismiss one and embrace the other, and on the surface,
that is valid, but it feels to me as if there is something much
deeper and more subtle and perhaps more broadly important going
on, especially if we are nearing the twilight of the Anthropocene,
going into a long-dark night of our own making *with* various
parts Science and Pseudoscience?</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">How about Reiki?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/04/reiki-cant-possibly-work-so-why-does-it/606808/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Does Reiki Work? - The Atlantic</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Roger Critchlow<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, August 15, 2021 10:00 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Oh, forgot to clearly identify the
irony: ;-)<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Doing diligence on this crap is way
exhausting. I am entirely in sympathy with your dilemma.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Even if ivermectin does nothing useful,
it still may be a useful treatment in situations where no
other treatment is available. And fabricating evidence of
its efficacy would also be a comfort to the patients and
the medical staff in that situation. A placebo can be
better than nothing, a placebo with a bogus story behind
it can be even better.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- rec --<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- rec --<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 12:37 PM Roger
Critchlow <<a href="mailto:rec@elf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">rec@elf.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Pieter --<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I looked over the links you
listed. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">They seem to claim that
withdrawl of ivermectin caused the spike in Covid
cases in India, and also that administering ivermectin
caused the end of the spike in Covid cases. Both of
these claims are sort of hard to evaluate, since I
don't see any evidence that anyone has ever
distributed ivermectin/doxycycline/zinc kits very
widely, either before or after the spike in
infections. Constructing and delivering kits for
1.366 billion people would have been quite an
achievement for any economy. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I followed the links to <a href="https://c19ivermectin.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://c19ivermectin.com/</a>
and found the list of ivermectin studies. The list
presented currently claims 110 studies, 68 peer
reviewed, 64 involving control and treatment groups,
but it's puffed up with another 50 entries which are
news clippings, press releases, meta-analyses,
reviews, and other miscellanea.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I looked an early review article, <a href="https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-020-0336-z.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-020-0336-z.pdf</a>,
though the pdf is hosted at
<a href="http://nature.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">nature.com</a>, it's from a
different journal.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal">The Journal of Antibiotics (2020)
73:593–602 <a href="https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z</a><br>
Ivermectin: a systematic review from antiviral effects
to COVID-19 complementary regimen Fatemeh Heidary1 ●
Reza Gharebaghi2,3<br>
1 Head of Ophthalmology Division, Taleghani Hospital,
Ahvaz Jundishapur University of Medical Sciences,
Ahvaz, Iran <br>
2 Kish International Campus, University of Tehran,
Tehran, Iran <br>
3 International Virtual Ophthalmic Research Center
(IVORC), Austin, TX, USA<br>
Abstract <br>
Ivermectin proposes many potentials effects to treat a
range of diseases, with its antimicrobial, antiviral,
and anti-cancer properties as a wonder drug. It is
highly effective against many microorganisms including
some viruses. In this comprehensive systematic review,
antiviral effects of ivermectin are summarized
including in vitro and in vivo studies over the past
50 years. Several studies reported antiviral effects
of ivermectin on RNA viruses such as Zika, dengue,
yellow fever, West Nile, Hendra, Newcastle, Venezuelan
equine encephalitis, chikungunya, Semliki Forest,
Sindbis, Avian influenza A, Porcine Reproductive and
Respiratory Syndrome, Human immunodeficiency virus
type 1, and severe acute respiratory syndrome
coronavirus 2. Furthermore, there are some studies
showing antiviral effects of ivermectin against DNA
viruses such as Equine herpes type 1, BK polyomavirus,
pseudorabies, porcine circovirus 2, and bovine
herpesvirus 1. Ivermmust beectin plays a role in
several biological mechanisms, therefore it could
serve as a potential candidate in the treatment of a
wide range of viruses including COVID-19 as well as
other types of positive-sense single-stranded RNA
viruses. In vivo studies of animal models revealed a
broad range of antiviral effects of ivermectin,
however, clinical trials are necessary to appraise the
potential efficacy of ivermectin in clinical setting<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The quick read is that ivermectin
interferes with viral reproduction
<i>in vitro</i>, but fails to work <i>in vivo</i>,
for all of these viruses. It's been tried against
every virus that's turned up in the last 50 years, had
some
<i>in vitro</i> anti-viral activity, but never became
an approved treatment for any of them. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It must be that the elites are
consipring. That's the only reasonable explanation
for the facts.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- rec --<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 2:28 AM
Pieter Steenekamp <<a href="mailto:pieters@randcontrols.co.za" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">pieters@randcontrols.co.za</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Nick, <br>
<br>
Thanks for pointing out that my message is not very
clear. Let me rewrite it with a change in wording, I
hope it's better this time.<br>
<br>
I believe that the study that Marcus referred to
above , <a href="https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid</a> ,
is most probably correct.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Help me if I'm wrong. It proves
that according to a specific protocol, there are
no benefits against covid in using ivermectin.
Does that mean that there are no other prophylaxis
protocols that include ivermectin that do give
benefits?<br>
<br>
I'd like to make sense of what's happening in
India. According to some (see references below),
the use of ivermectin is effective against covid
in India. I really don't know how reliable these
sources are. Does anyone have better information?
I'd like to know. <br>
<br>
References:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<a href="https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">Pieter<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 23:13,
<<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Pieter<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Did
you perhaps leave out a link? Which study?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick
Thompson<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><span style="color:#0563c1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><span style="color:#0563c1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b>
Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Pieter Steenekamp<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 14, 2021 12:09
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I
believe this study is most probably
correct. <br>
<br>
Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that
according to a specific protocol, there are
no benefits against covid in using
ivermectin. Does that mean that there are no
other prophylaxis protocols that include
ivermectin that do give benefits?<br>
<br>
I'd like to make sense of what's happening
in India. According to some (see reference
below), the use of ivermectin is effective
against covid in India. I really don't know
how reliable these sources are. Does anyone
have better information? I'd like to know. <br>
<br>
References:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/</a><br>
<a href="https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf</a><br>
<a href="https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Pieter<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 17:34, Marcus Daniels
<<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><a href="https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
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