<div dir="ltr">Thanks for the comments gentlemen.<div><br></div><div>Pieter</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 19:12, Frank Wimberly <<a href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Like<div dir="auto"><br><br><div dir="auto">---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br>140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>Santa Fe, NM 87505<br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Aug 15, 2021, 11:00 AM Roger Critchlow <<a href="mailto:rec@elf.org" target="_blank">rec@elf.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Oh, forgot to clearly identify the irony: ;-)<div><br></div><div>Doing diligence on this crap is way exhausting. I am entirely in sympathy with your dilemma.</div><div><br></div><div>Even if ivermectin does nothing useful, it still may be a useful treatment in situations where no other treatment is available. And fabricating evidence of its efficacy would also be a comfort to the patients and the medical staff in that situation. A placebo can be better than nothing, a placebo with a bogus story behind it can be even better.</div><div><br></div><div>-- rec --</div><div><br></div><div>-- rec --<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 12:37 PM Roger Critchlow <<a href="mailto:rec@elf.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">rec@elf.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Pieter --<div><br></div><div>I looked over the links you listed. </div><div><br></div><div>They seem to claim that withdrawl of ivermectin caused the spike in Covid cases in India, and also that administering ivermectin caused the end of the spike in Covid cases. Both of these claims are sort of hard to evaluate, since I don't see any evidence that anyone has ever distributed ivermectin/doxycycline/zinc kits very widely, either before or after the spike in infections. Constructing and delivering kits for 1.366 billion people would have been quite an achievement for any economy. </div><div><br></div><div>I followed the links to <a href="https://c19ivermectin.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://c19ivermectin.com/</a> and found the list of ivermectin studies. The list presented currently claims 110 studies, 68 peer reviewed, 64 involving control and treatment groups, but it's puffed up with another 50 entries which are news clippings, press releases, meta-analyses, reviews, and other miscellanea.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I looked an early review article, <a href="https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-020-0336-z.pdf" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-020-0336-z.pdf</a>, though the pdf is hosted at <a href="http://nature.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">nature.com</a>, it's from a different journal.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">The Journal of Antibiotics (2020) 73:593–602
<a href="https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z</a><br>Ivermectin: a systematic review from antiviral effects to COVID-19
complementary regimen
Fatemeh Heidary1 ●
Reza Gharebaghi2,3<br>1 Head of Ophthalmology Division, Taleghani Hospital, Ahvaz
Jundishapur University of Medical Sciences, Ahvaz, Iran <br>2 Kish International Campus, University of Tehran, Tehran, Iran <br>3 International Virtual Ophthalmic Research Center (IVORC),
Austin, TX, USA<br>Abstract <br>Ivermectin proposes many potentials effects to treat a range of diseases, with its antimicrobial, antiviral, and anti-cancer properties
as a wonder drug. It is highly effective against many microorganisms including some viruses. In this comprehensive systematic
review, antiviral effects of ivermectin are summarized including in vitro and in vivo studies over the past 50 years. Several studies
reported antiviral effects of ivermectin on RNA viruses such as Zika, dengue, yellow fever, West Nile, Hendra, Newcastle,
Venezuelan equine encephalitis, chikungunya, Semliki Forest, Sindbis, Avian influenza A, Porcine Reproductive and Respiratory
Syndrome, Human immunodeficiency virus type 1, and severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2. Furthermore, there are
some studies showing antiviral effects of ivermectin against DNA viruses such as Equine herpes type 1, BK polyomavirus,
pseudorabies, porcine circovirus 2, and bovine herpesvirus 1. Ivermmust beectin plays a role in several biological mechanisms, therefore
it could serve as a potential candidate in the treatment of a wide range of viruses including COVID-19 as well as other types of
positive-sense single-stranded RNA viruses. In vivo studies of animal models revealed a broad range of antiviral effects of
ivermectin, however, clinical trials are necessary to appraise the potential efficacy of ivermectin in clinical setting<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The quick read is that ivermectin interferes with viral reproduction <i>in vitro</i>, but fails to work <i>in vivo</i>, for all of these viruses. It's been tried against every virus that's turned up in the last 50 years, had some <i>in vitro</i> anti-viral activity, but never became an approved treatment for any of them. </div><div><br></div><div>It must be that the elites are consipring. That's the only reasonable explanation for the facts.</div><div><br></div><div>-- rec --</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 2:28 AM Pieter Steenekamp <<a href="mailto:pieters@randcontrols.co.za" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">pieters@randcontrols.co.za</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Nick, <br><br>Thanks for pointing out that my message is not very clear. Let me rewrite it with a change in wording, I hope it's better this time.<br><br>I believe that the study that Marcus referred to above ,
<a href="https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid</a> , is most probably correct.<br><br><div>Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol, there are no benefits against covid in using ivermectin. Does that mean that there are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that do give benefits?<br><br>I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some (see references below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in India. I really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have better information? I'd like to know. <br><br>References:<div><a href="https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/</a></div><div><br><a href="https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf</a><br><br></div><div><a href="https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/</a><div><br></div><div><a href="https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/</a><br></div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/</a><font color="#888888"><br></font></div><font color="#888888"><div><br></div><div>Pieter</div><div><br></div></font></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 23:13, <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal">Pieter<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Did you perhaps leave out a link? Which study?<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Pieter Steenekamp<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 14, 2021 12:09 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">I believe this study is most probably correct. <br><br>Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol, there are no benefits against covid in using ivermectin. Does that mean that there are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that do give benefits?<br><br>I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some (see reference below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in India. I really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have better information? I'd like to know. <br><br>References:<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/</a><br><a href="https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf</a><br><a href="https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/</a><u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Pieter<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><br><br><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 17:34, Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><a href="https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div></div></div>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>
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