<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">dave west does not recall making such an argument: <i>"people who talk about science are Scientismists, their God is Science."</i> Perhaps this is a straw man of something he may have said? But even that feels weird. He might feel comfortable with an assertion, ala Feyerabend, that the foundations of science include <b>"articles of faith,"</b> that are neither 'provable' nor 'objectively more rational' than religious articles of faith. But even here, he would insist that both science and religion have very few actual articles of faith while religion has millions of silly assertions of "TRUTH" while science tries to avoid same.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">On Wed, Aug 18, 2021, at 2:25 PM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Ha! Yeah, we have other reasons to fire her, or at least suspend her. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Mainly she doesn't really clean all that well ... albeit according to a <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> couple of "Virgos" who have obsessive-compulsive tendencies anyway. I <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> also learned today that she's a "moral intuitionist" (ala silly people <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> like Michael Heumer). From her perspective, in response to <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> "censorship", "freedom of speech", and the glut of "information" out <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> there, the best way to decide what's true is to go with your gut and <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> pray. I tried to intervene with "science". But she then countered with <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Dave West's argument that people who talk about science are <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Scientismists, their God is Science. I then tried to explain that <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> science is a set of behaviors, methods, not a Thing. Nobody prays to <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Science ... well, nobody serious anyway. There are many many theists <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> who also believe in scientific methods. But then she accused me of <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> appeal to authority, not being a scientist myself. [sigh] Irony is <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> dead. I apologized for upsetting her and went back to my Zoom meeting <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> of stultifying bureaucracy.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Why is everything so hard?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> On 8/18/21 1:06 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > Just don't invite her back until the pandemic has become endemic. A distinction without a difference but then she can win the argument. :-)<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > -----Original Message-----<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 12:54 PM<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > To: FriAM <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > Subject: [FRIAM] vax v unvax<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > Soooo ... our house cleaner is anti-vax. My friends tell me we should fire her. I've resisted confronting her over it. But hospitals being overrun influenced me to press her a little bit. I claimed that the majority of hospitalizations are the unvaxxed. She claimed that down near her (I think closer to Centralia, WA), it was flipped, that the majority of hospitalizations were vaccinated. We had the usual conversation where she ended with "you believe your data and I believe my data" blather. So I decided to see if I could find news articles claiming the majority of hospitalized covid cases are the vaccinated. And I found this:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > Higher Death, Hospitalization Rates Among Vaccinated Individuals: UK COVID-19 Data <a href="https://www.visiontimes.com/2021/07/04/deaths-hospital-vaccinated-uk.html">https://www.visiontimes.com/2021/07/04/deaths-hospital-vaccinated-uk.html</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > Most COVID-19 Patients at Israel Hospital Fully Vaccinated, Doctor Calls Mandates ‘Diabolic’<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <a href="https://www.visiontimes.com/2021/08/08/israel-hospital-vaccinated.html">https://www.visiontimes.com/2021/08/08/israel-hospital-vaccinated.html</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > They're both from the "Vision Times", which looks to me like a Falun Gong outlet, popular with Trumpists, anti-CCP, etc. So, I don't really want to do any debunking or verification. I *want* to write it off as garbage. But their source: <a href="https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1001359/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_16.pdf">https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1001359/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_16.pdf</a> seems legit. And the numbers in the article seem to match Table 4.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > Plugging in the numbers from the latest briefing: <a href="https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-of-novel-sars-cov-2-variant-variant-of-concern-20201201">https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-of-novel-sars-cov-2-variant-variant-of-concern-20201201</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > It really does seem to show that the death rate among vaxxed is higher than that among unvaxxed.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > The LifeSiteNews site is obviously troll nonsense. But my concern is mostly about that tech report from the UK and Herzog Hospital. Are these counter examples to the NYT unvax/vax data? Are they small enough to be within error?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > --<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> > ☤>$ uǝlƃ<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> -- <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> ☤>$ uǝlƃ<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div></body></html>