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NST -<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:055f01d795f4$113b0b40$33b121c0$@gmail.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">You attempt to find ANYTHING of value in
ZAMM is touching … no, I mean that.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>it should be touching in the sense that it was your very
earnestness about the work and the questions it raises that forced
(allowed?) me to transcend my PTSD from my original reaction to
it. Recognize, however, that I *did* finish reading it in 197x,
so it wasn't as if it offered me nothing. <br>
</p>
<p>Recognize (also) that my reactions to it (early and late)
represent as much about me as about Pirsig, the work, and the
context it was developed and presented within.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:055f01d795f4$113b0b40$33b121c0$@gmail.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p>I still have not finished
rereading the damn book so will hold off on that. <br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
I hope our various observations on ZAMM does not wave you off, but
rather gives you some more semi-random mirrors in which to look at
it as you continue to engage-with/inspect it.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:055f01d795f4$113b0b40$33b121c0$@gmail.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"> On mysticism, what the hell is it?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I think that is a good question:</p>
<p>Let's begin with a dictionary definition:</p>
<blockquote>
<div class="WI9k4c" style="display: table; word-break: break-word;
color: rgb(32, 33, 36); font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif;
font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness:
initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;">
<div class="jY7QFf" style="min-height: 36px; margin-bottom: 0px;
line-height: normal;">
<div class="c8d6zd ya2TWb DgZBFd" style="font-family:
"Google Sans", Roboto, arial, sans-serif; color:
rgb(32, 33, 36); font-size: 28px; font-weight: 400;
line-height: 36px; vertical-align: top; margin-top: -6px;"><span
data-dobid="hdw">mys·ti·cism</span></div>
</div>
<div class="S23sjd" style="padding-top: 8px;"><span
class="LTKOO" style="font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-weight: 400; line-height: 22px;">/<span>ˈmistəˌsizəm</span>/</span></div>
<div class="K6GhFd" data-is-bilingual="false" aria-hidden="true"
style="max-height: 0px; opacity: 0; pointer-events: none;
transition: max-height 0.3s ease 0s, opacity 0.3s ease 0s;">
<div class="b8aKlc" style="padding: 8px 0px 6px;"><a
href="https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk01SPXYMV-GzzvOjkrBOZIeJVLimrQ:1629491261362&q=how+to+pronounce+mysticism&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAOMIfcRozS3w8sc9YSmjSWtOXmPU4eINKMrPK81LzkwsyczPExLlYglJLcoV4pXi5uLMrSwuyUzOLM61YlFiSs3jWcQqlZFfrlCSr1AA1JQP1JWqAFcDABgZBrFdAAAA&pron_lang=en&pron_country=us&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwjy_K_-t8DyAhUNR_EDHT5jDiEQ3eEDMAB6BAgCEAc"
tabindex="-1" style="color: rgb(26, 13, 171);
text-decoration: none; -webkit-tap-highlight-color:
rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1); outline: 0px;">
<div class="S5TwIf" style="display: inline-block;
padding-right: 12px; box-shadow: rgb(218, 220, 224) 0px
0px 0px 1px inset; border-radius: 6px; overflow: hidden;
vertical-align: top;"><img id="dimg_22"
src="cid:part1.416F1559.47AB4308@swcp.com"
class="rISBZc zr758c M4dUYb" alt="" data-atf="1"
data-frt="0" style="display: block; border: 0px;
position: relative;" width="32" height="32"><span
class="fe69if" style="margin-left: 10px;
vertical-align: middle;">Learn to pronounce</span></div>
</a></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="lW8rQd" style="display: flex;">
<div>
<div class="pgRvse YrbPuc vdBwhd" style="color: rgb(112,
117, 122); font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-weight: 400; line-height: 22px;
padding-top: 4px; min-height: 20px;"><i><span
class="YrbPuc" style="color: rgb(112, 117, 122);
font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size:
14px; font-weight: 400; line-height: 22px;">noun</span></i></div>
<div class="xpdxpnd" data-mh="-1" aria-hidden="true"
style="overflow: hidden; transition: max-height 0.3s ease
0s; max-height: 0px;"><span><span class="kqEaA ZYHQ7e"
style="color: rgb(112, 117, 122); font-family: Roboto,
arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 400;
line-height: 22px;"></span><span class="kqEaA z8gr9e"
style="color: rgb(60, 64, 67); font-family: Roboto,
arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 400;
line-height: 22px;"></span></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<ol class="eQJLDd" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px 0px 0px
20px; display: flex; flex-direction: column;">
<li style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; list-style: none;">
<div class="vmod">
<div class="thODed" style="padding-top: 8px;">
<div class="LTKOO sY7ric" data-topic=""
style="font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-weight: 400; line-height: 16px;">
<div style="float: left;"><span>1</span>.</div>
<div style="margin-left: 20px;">
<div class="LTKOO sY7ric" style="font-family:
Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
font-weight: 400; line-height: 16px;">
<div data-dobid="dfn" style="display: inline;"><span>belief
that union with or absorption into the Deity
or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension
of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect,
may be attained through contemplation and
self-surrender.</span></div>
<div class="vmod">
<div class="ubHt5c" style="color: rgb(112, 117,
122);">"St. Theresa's writings were part of
the tradition of Christian mysticism"</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; list-style: none;">
<div class="vmod">
<div class="thODed" style="padding-top: 8px;">
<div class="LTKOO sY7ric" data-topic=""
style="font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-weight: 400; line-height: 16px;">
<div style="float: left;"><span>2</span>.</div>
<div style="margin-left: 20px;">
<div class="LTKOO sY7ric" style="font-family:
Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
font-weight: 400; line-height: 16px;">
<div data-dobid="dfn" style="display: inline;"><span>belief
characterized by self-delusion or dreamy
confusion of thought, especially when based on
the assumption of occult qualities or
mysterious agencies.</span></div>
<div class="vmod">
<div class="ubHt5c" style="color: rgb(112, 117,
122);">"there is a hint of New Age mysticism
in the show's title"</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
</ol>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="vmod" style="color: rgb(32, 33, 36); font-family:
Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: medium; font-style: normal;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">
<div class="vmod" data-topic="">
<div>I personally don't identify with *either* definition,
though I recognize an element of both in my own experience.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<ol>
<li>I suppose I would focus on "spiritual apprehension"
which just kicks the can down the road with "what means
spiritual?" perhaps. Spiritual vs Intellectual. With
Emotional complicating the equation?<br>
</li>
<li>"self-delusion and dreamy confusion of thought" are
certainly common enough and an obvious risk of
indulging-in/accepting mysticism.</li>
</ol>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:055f01d795f4$113b0b40$33b121c0$@gmail.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">I see it as a kind of giving up on the
intellectual project, a hugging of the question without any
interest in the answer. I see those who talk about the “hard
problem” as mystics, at least in sofar as they take pleasure
in calling the problem “hard”. </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I don't believe that allowing a mystical perspective implies
entirely "giving up on the intellectual project", but perhaps more
importantly, not allowing the need for (pat?) answers to force-fit
whatever current best-model one has at hand to the exclusion of
looking for yet better ones. <br>
</p>
<p>I suspect that what you think of as mysticism might be similar to
what I often have/do which is the throwing over of models
developed through more rational processes such as the scientific
method for yet-others pulled out of a dark/dank place. I do
think that declining to discuss/think-about interesting questions
too easily "because mysticism" is not a good thing, but I also
believe that holding off and leaving a few questions hanging for a
while without nailing down answers is powerful. Paraphrasing the
Red Queen: "perhaps it is good to believe six <i>mutually</i>
impossible things before breakfast some days".<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:055f01d795f4$113b0b40$33b121c0$@gmail.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p>I am interested in Pirsig’s idea
that all experience arises from an experience of quality. In
the final years of my teaching and in those coffee house
seminars I organized I operated on the assumption that one did
not have standing to judge a text until one was thoroughly
familiar with it. So when people arrived at a seminar saying
that they had loved or hated it, I would try and postpone
those discussions until we had examined the text closely. If
the quality-experience is at the core off all experience, I
was terribly wrong to do that. We needed to examine these
quality-experiences FIRST and let them lead us to the text. </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I don't know that it needs to be nor should be ordered. I would
say my "quality" judgements against ZAMM nearly 50 years ago
precluded me from becoming more familiar with the text. I
certainly was expected to be much more familiar with a given text
(say in Literature, Poetry, Anthropology) than that before I tried
to "judge" it. My best language arts (and fencing BTW) teacher
was good at holding both up at the same time. She would have us
read things (sometimes out of class, sometimes in class) and
respond to them from our guts (hearts, souls, viscera, gonads?)
but then would inspect the texts more thoroughly as well and in
fact compare and contrast between our "reactions" and our
"responses" as it were. Pretty powerful stuff for an 18 year
old. Did I mention I fell in love with this teacher? She was in
her mid 60s, but man could she wield a fencing foil *as well as*
literary images. I was just a greenhorn punk and I'm sure I
wasn't the first to give her that kind of response. I lucked out
with my Philosophy 101 professor as well. To this day I can't
really fault any of his handling of us... where "us" included a
modest contingent of Vietnam Vets who were 4-10 years older than
many of us and were carrying various forms of PTSD (mild unto
not-mild?)... he probably wasn't as "perfect" as I remember but
that probably just reflects my naivete at the time.</p>
<p>Your own experience AS one of those professors would seem to be
naturally complementary to my own. It seems like YOU might have
been one of my younger profs a the time (mid 70s?), though at a
different university in a different geopolitical region of the US.</p>
<p>Did you tell us when YOU read the book the first time (or is THIS
your first time)? <br>
</p>
<p>Also I am curious about your own experience with the
technicalities of maintaining any type of machinery... you don't
seem exactly like a gear-head but I suppose you could have been
pulling the engine in a 1960 VW Bug in your dorm parking lot (onto
a milk-crate, by hand, as was the standard practice for many) for
all I know. <br>
</p>
<p>Similarly, I am not clear on what engagement you may have had
with Eastern Philosophy/Spirituality along the way. Your style as
I know you seems to be very "Western" in a very "American"
stylization or more aptly perhaps "New England" stylization?<br>
</p>
<p>- SAS<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:055f01d795f4$113b0b40$33b121c0$@gmail.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve
Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 20, 2021 2:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] "ZAMM"<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Nick -<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I think your observation here hits a head on a nail... it
matters as much what our expectations are (the proto-model we
have?) as the facts/data we fit to them? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Certainly my two readings were *very* different, though
neither was terribly positive (if that even matters?) <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>As if to say *everything* is in the eyes of the beholder.
Which is perhaps another way of saying "everything is
subjective"? Which is NOT to say (I don't think) that there
is or cannot be any objectivity in a matter (observation,
ingestion of another's storytelling, etc.)... though in the
sense that "context matters", objectivity it does seem
fundamental that the cascade of implications of context is
unbounded. I suppose this is the allure of Mathematics, that
it is based in a (small) finite number of axioms.
Ultimately, physics (and even moreso the more complex
sciences) *must* assume a "spherical cow". <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Our (FriAM itself and the larger conversation in the first
world?) recent hubbub about COVID and it's range of
interventions/preventions/treatments and the roughly bimodal
distribution of opinions/beliefs/actions seems to beg this
question over and over again. Both extremes seem to devolve
into a tautology in some sense.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I don't know if this furthers/resurrects DaveW's thread of
"the ineffable" in any way, but I keep returning here NOT
because I want to believe the myriad anti-this-n-thats or
conspiracy-styled beliefs but because when I try to understand
what drives that kind of thinking, and by extension what
differentiates it from my own (or more aptly, that which I
aspire to or elevate when I see/hear it such as what both
EricS and GlenR seem to manage most if not all the time). IN
a typical-of-me tangent, I was just at my Feed Store and their
display of Ivermectin jumped out at me... I knew of it as a
horse-dewormer, but didn't connect it to the latest crackpot
conspiracy that has lead (apparently) to several deaths
(ingesting horse-dose/grade Ivermectin)..<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Back to Pirsig: IN 197x when I might have had a worn
paperback copy of ZAMM in my back pocket, curled from leaving
it there while riding my own motorcycle, I was looking
furtively/askance for "elders" to look up to whilst being a
bit too full of my own juice, thinking I didn't want to just
become an acolyte to others, even if I didn't myself want to
be a prophet (at least not in the sense of having
followers). I was acutely disturbed by the main character's
declared mental illness, his (Phaedrus') role as a teacher of
writing who presumed to have a corner on "what means
quality?" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I was in college myself and while I was pleased to have a
range of professors who had more going on than 99% of my
small-town HS teachers had, I was also offended by their often
self-declared status as "holders of the truth". While I'd
signed up for as many Math/Physics courses as I could, the
liberal-arts nature of the University seemed to think I'd do
well to take a few courses like Philosophy, Creative Writing,
Anthropology, and even Fencing. What I didn't factor in was
how compelling those courses of study would turn out to be for
me *in spite of* their obvious subjectivity. My math/physics
profs got a pass from me on the "holders of truth" thing
because at the introductory level, and the way math/physics
*works*, there was little if *any* room for me to imagine I
might know more/different than they did. The *really good*
profs in the other disciplines really impressed me *because*
they had to be thinking all the time, not only about their
subject material but the responses from the class. A lot of
our discussions/questions/feedback *was* trite and I am sure
boring to them, but occasionally there would be spirited (and
I believed fruitful) discussions that I *never* had in my
(hard) science/math classes. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Trying to dredge up something more positive to say and
perhaps, more to the point, relevant to your specific
experience with ZAMM, I found the "Gumption Trap" a fairly
trite thing, BUT by pointing at the question of "Quality" I
think it is a good place to spend some time. I look forward
to the possibility that this diverse group (FriAM) of
broad/deep thinkers will thrash this one at least one more
time at your prompt.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I do believe that Pirsig was the one who introduced me to the
concept of "The Tao" at a deeper level than I had read/heard
it before. I subsequently found Ray Smullyan's "The Tao is
Silent" which was easier for me to swallow as he came with his
Mathematician/Logician credentials and then the "I Ching"
(Wilhelm-Baynes 1977 edition) which I eventually adopted as a
ritual "Oracle" to joggle my brain/soul/heart a little now and
then. I also think that despite my quarrels with
Pirsig/Phaedrus (judgments of?) this work did soften me up and
introduce me to the kinds of questions best considered from a
Taoist perspective (thus the I Ching)? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I am also much more comfortable with Mysticism as an approach
to apprehending the world (not explaining, it, apprehending
it) than I was "back then". I never liked the "there are no
Athiests in Foxholes" but I do think that age and experience
and perhaps most importantly awareness of mortality does
increase one's appetite or receptiveness to "the mystical".
Where I get hung up with Conspiracists and Woo Peddlers is
that they mistake "a good question" for "an answer" and try to
run with it as if there is actually a "thing" for them to try
to carry across some imagined "finish line". <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>mumble,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> - Sieve<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Not harsh at all, Dave. Just the kind
of variation in reading that I was interested in. For you,
apparently, the book was read for its possible insights into
eastern thought, and for that purpose, it wasn’t anything
special; I read it for its insights into philosophy
generally, and for that rather more naïve purpose, it was
more useful. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am trying to finish up my second
reading. I am in Oregon reading about Gumption Traps. Do
you remember gumption traps? The meme stuck in our family
for years, long after we had almost forgotten the book
itself. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">We are working on a possible cat three
hurricane for Sunday, here, so I may go silent for a bit. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Where is Roger C? I worry for those in
peril on the seas. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 20, 2021 11:17 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] "ZAMM"<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Nick,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">my last
response was kind harsh.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Although,
I see little value in Pirsig's books, I am very
interested in the ideas or the inspirations you may have
found in them, and would welcome a discussion of those
things and perhaps the discovery of shared
ideas/values/philosophies that are common even if
derived from different roots.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Aug 19, 2021, at 7:50 PM, Prof
David West wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
id="qt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Nick,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Like
Steve, I was gravely disappointed in the book. I had
been studying Eastern philosophies for nearly thirty
years when it was published so one level of
disappointment was the lack of anything new, even a
new perspective.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">The
whole mental illness / introspection / Phaedrus
persona / son as mirror aspect elicited the same
reaction as Steve - what indulgence.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">The
book does echo some philosophical ideas — of which I
doubt Pirsig was aware — with regard Kata: the correct
way of doing things, of being, of interacting with the
world. There is Kata in Zen. and that is why it is not
the Ch'an Buddhism that was imported from China. I
guess that Pirsig resonated with this element, and
that informed his writing and his selection of title.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">The
subtitle with regard 'values' has no grounding, as far
as I can remember, in any aspect of Zen or other
Eastern mystical philosophy.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Hope
others have more positive things to say, as it sounds
like this book was valuable to you.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Aug 19, 2021, at 2:16 PM,
Steve Smith wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
id="qt-qt">
<p>Nick -<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I read it when it was fairly new and I was very
young. The interwebs (I mean, whatever vapid popular
culture rode on top of in those days) was aflutter and I
was a voracious reader, a motorcycle
owner/rider/maintainer, and I was enamored of the idea
of eastern mysticism in spite of the harsh and
distorting filters Western pop culture shoved it through
before it could get to me. So of course i read it. And
of course I was disappointed.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I was hugely disappointed and annoyed by
Pirsig/Phaedrus. I did not ride motorcycles for the
reasons or in the way he did, nor did I maintain mine in
his fashion nor did I hold it up in the way he did. Of
course, Pirsig (and his character) were somewhat older
than I was and had had more time in life to F* up...
he just seemed like a self-indulgent F*-up to me,
dragging his son through the worst of it along with
him. I was also offended by all the hubub about the
book... for the most part I "just didn't get it". It
just seemed like more of our pop-culture's need to
elevate a quite base neopatriarchy: (e.g. Hemingway,
Kerouac, HS Thompson, Abbey, etc)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>When Mary moved here about 4 years ago, we (re)read
ZAMM together. In the intervening years I had learned a
lot more about mental illness including having direct
experience with people who had endured a great deal of
it, up to and including Electroshock Therapy. I had
also grown out of my motorcycle riding identity (in my
50s) but still held onto fetishizing the spirit of
something as simple and "easy" to maintain as a
(classic) motorcycle (or auto). I had also read a lot
more Greek (and other Western/Eastern) Philosophy in the
intervening years and had my own ideas about "Quality"
including Christopher Alexander's ineffable "Quality
Without a Name".<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I appreciated ZAMM/Pirsig/Phaedrus a lot more the
second time but still felt like it was somewhat
self-indulgent. To the extent that I know of Pirsig's
subsequent unfolding of a life (including his son's
death) I felt more sympathetic to what I had judged as
F*up. It also helps that I went on to F* up my own life
repeatedly and sometimes even recursively (yet I am
still here, being self-indulgent and judgemental).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>this was a nice obituary blog entry:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><a
href="https://douglastoft.com/robert-pirsig-on-coming-to-terms-with-the-death-of-his-son/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://douglastoft.com/robert-pirsig-on-coming-to-terms-with-the-death-of-his-son/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Another couple of (re) reads we did together were:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> Moby Dick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 8/19/21 1:46 PM, <a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Dave:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">As usual, my [conscious]
motives were not so high falutin’. As usual I am
trying to get others to think with me because I
cannot think alone. To the extent that I am a
philosopher, it probably is because of that book and
I am really interesting in the role it played in the
lives of others. For instance, one friend told me
that his response was to go out and buy a motor
cycle. Also I am interested in what a second
reading, 40 plus years would be like for each of
you. It was quite a revelation to me. So, as
general, you give my conscious mind too much
credit. I can’t speak for the unconscious one. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Stephen,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">If you mean, the original
Greek figure, no I don’t. He’s briefly described
somewhere in zamm as a sophist, but that’s already
more than I know. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">N<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephen Guerin<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August
19, 2021 3:26 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning
Applied Complexity Coffee Group <a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><friam@redfish.com></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM]
"ZAMM"<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Nick, <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">do you know Phaedrus? <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">On Wed, Aug 18, 2021,
7:46 PM <<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Colleagues,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">I wonder if
Pirsig’s <i>Zen and the Art of Motorcycle
Maintenance </i>was a thing for any of
you, and if you would be interested in
pursuing a thread about it and, if so, if
you would be willing to get it down off your
shelf and flip through it, looking for the
parts you loved and the parts you hated. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">N<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
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