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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Dave,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Not harsh at all, Dave. Just the kind of variation in reading that I was interested in. For you, apparently, the book was read for its possible insights into eastern thought, and for that purpose, it wasn’t anything special; I read it for its insights into philosophy generally, and for that rather more naïve purpose, it was more useful. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I am trying to finish up my second reading. I am in Oregon reading about Gumption Traps. Do you remember gumption traps? The meme stuck in our family for years, long after we had almost forgotten the book itself. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>We are working on a possible cat three hurricane for Sunday, here, so I may go silent for a bit. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Where is Roger C? I worry for those in peril on the seas. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Nick <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"><span style='color:#0563C1'>ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"><span style='color:#0563C1'>https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 20, 2021 11:17 AM<br><b>To:</b> friam@redfish.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] "ZAMM"<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Nick,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>my last response was kind harsh.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Although, I see little value in Pirsig's books, I am very interested in the ideas or the inspirations you may have found in them, and would welcome a discussion of those things and perhaps the discovery of shared ideas/values/philosophies that are common even if derived from different roots.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>davew<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Aug 19, 2021, at 7:50 PM, Prof David West wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' id=qt><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Nick,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Like Steve, I was gravely disappointed in the book. I had been studying Eastern philosophies for nearly thirty years when it was published so one level of disappointment was the lack of anything new, even a new perspective.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>The whole mental illness / introspection / Phaedrus persona / son as mirror aspect elicited the same reaction as Steve - what indulgence.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>The book does echo some philosophical ideas — of which I doubt Pirsig was aware — with regard Kata: the correct way of doing things, of being, of interacting with the world. There is Kata in Zen. and that is why it is not the Ch'an Buddhism that was imported from China. I guess that Pirsig resonated with this element, and that informed his writing and his selection of title.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>The subtitle with regard 'values' has no grounding, as far as I can remember, in any aspect of Zen or other Eastern mystical philosophy.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Hope others have more positive things to say, as it sounds like this book was valuable to you.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>davew<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Aug 19, 2021, at 2:16 PM, Steve Smith wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' id=qt-qt><p>Nick -<o:p></o:p></p><p>I read it when it was fairly new and I was very young. The interwebs (I mean, whatever vapid popular culture rode on top of in those days) was aflutter and I was a voracious reader, a motorcycle owner/rider/maintainer, and I was enamored of the idea of eastern mysticism in spite of the harsh and distorting filters Western pop culture shoved it through before it could get to me. So of course i read it. And of course I was disappointed.<o:p></o:p></p><p>I was hugely disappointed and annoyed by Pirsig/Phaedrus. I did not ride motorcycles for the reasons or in the way he did, nor did I maintain mine in his fashion nor did I hold it up in the way he did. Of course, Pirsig (and his character) were somewhat older than I was and had had more time in life to F* up... he just seemed like a self-indulgent F*-up to me, dragging his son through the worst of it along with him. I was also offended by all the hubub about the book... for the most part I "just didn't get it". It just seemed like more of our pop-culture's need to elevate a quite base neopatriarchy: (e.g. Hemingway, Kerouac, HS Thompson, Abbey, etc)<o:p></o:p></p><p>When Mary moved here about 4 years ago, we (re)read ZAMM together. In the intervening years I had learned a lot more about mental illness including having direct experience with people who had endured a great deal of it, up to and including Electroshock Therapy. I had also grown out of my motorcycle riding identity (in my 50s) but still held onto fetishizing the spirit of something as simple and "easy" to maintain as a (classic) motorcycle (or auto). I had also read a lot more Greek (and other Western/Eastern) Philosophy in the intervening years and had my own ideas about "Quality" including Christopher Alexander's ineffable "Quality Without a Name".<o:p></o:p></p><p>I appreciated ZAMM/Pirsig/Phaedrus a lot more the second time but still felt like it was somewhat self-indulgent. To the extent that I know of Pirsig's subsequent unfolding of a life (including his son's death) I felt more sympathetic to what I had judged as F*up. It also helps that I went on to F* up my own life repeatedly and sometimes even recursively (yet I am still here, being self-indulgent and judgemental).<o:p></o:p></p><p>this was a nice obituary blog entry:<o:p></o:p></p><p><a href="https://douglastoft.com/robert-pirsig-on-coming-to-terms-with-the-death-of-his-son/">https://douglastoft.com/robert-pirsig-on-coming-to-terms-with-the-death-of-his-son/</a><o:p></o:p></p><p>Another couple of (re) reads we did together were:<o:p></o:p></p><p> Moby Dick<o:p></o:p></p><p> A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich<o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 8/19/21 1:46 PM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1>Dave:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1>As usual, my [conscious] motives were not so high falutin’. As usual I am trying to get others to think with me because I cannot think alone. To the extent that I am a philosopher, it probably is because of that book and I am really interesting in the role it played in the lives of others. For instance, one friend told me that his response was to go out and buy a motor cycle. Also I am interested in what a second reading, 40 plus years would be like for each of you. It was quite a revelation to me. So, as general, you give my conscious mind too much credit. I can’t speak for the unconscious one. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1>Stephen,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1>If you mean, the original Greek figure, no I don’t. He’s briefly described somewhere in zamm as a sophist, but that’s already more than I know. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1>N<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1>Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"><span style='color:#0563C1'>ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"><span style='color:#0563C1'>https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1'><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Friam <a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephen Guerin<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 19, 2021 3:26 PM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] "ZAMM"<o:p></o:p></p></div><p><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1>Nick, <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1>do you know Phaedrus? <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1>On Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 7:46 PM <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1'><div><div><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1>Colleagues,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1>I wonder if Pirsig’s <i>Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance </i>was a thing for any of you, and if you would be interested in pursuing a thread about it and, if so, if you would be willing to get it down off your shelf and flip through it, looking for the parts you loved and the parts you hated. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1>N<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1>Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/" target="_blank">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=qt-qt-msonormal1><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" 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