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<p>Nick -</p>
<p>I think your observation here hits a head on a nail... it
matters as much what our expectations are (the proto-model we
have?) as the facts/data we fit to them? <br>
</p>
<p>Certainly my two readings were *very* different, though neither
was terribly positive (if that even matters?) <br>
</p>
<p>As if to say *everything* is in the eyes of the beholder. Which
is perhaps another way of saying "everything is subjective"?
Which is NOT to say (I don't think) that there is or cannot be any
objectivity in a matter (observation, ingestion of another's
storytelling, etc.)... though in the sense that "context
matters", objectivity it does seem fundamental that the cascade
of implications of context is unbounded. I suppose this is the
allure of Mathematics, that it is based in a (small) finite number
of axioms. Ultimately, physics (and even moreso the more complex
sciences) *must* assume a "spherical cow". <br>
</p>
<p>Our (FriAM itself and the larger conversation in the first
world?) recent hubbub about COVID and it's range of
interventions/preventions/treatments and the roughly bimodal
distribution of opinions/beliefs/actions seems to beg this
question over and over again. Both extremes seem to devolve into
a tautology in some sense.</p>
<p>I don't know if this furthers/resurrects DaveW's thread of "the
ineffable" in any way, but I keep returning here NOT because I
want to believe the myriad anti-this-n-thats or conspiracy-styled
beliefs but because when I try to understand what drives that kind
of thinking, and by extension what differentiates it from my own
(or more aptly, that which I aspire to or elevate when I see/hear
it such as what both EricS and GlenR seem to manage most if not
all the time). IN a typical-of-me tangent, I was just at my Feed
Store and their display of Ivermectin jumped out at me... I knew
of it as a horse-dewormer, but didn't connect it to the latest
crackpot conspiracy that has lead (apparently) to several deaths
(ingesting horse-dose/grade Ivermectin)..<br>
</p>
<p>Back to Pirsig: IN 197x when I might have had a worn paperback
copy of ZAMM in my back pocket, curled from leaving it there while
riding my own motorcycle, I was looking furtively/askance for
"elders" to look up to whilst being a bit too full of my own
juice, thinking I didn't want to just become an acolyte to others,
even if I didn't myself want to be a prophet (at least not in the
sense of having followers). I was acutely disturbed by the main
character's declared mental illness, his (Phaedrus') role as a
teacher of writing who presumed to have a corner on "what means
quality?" <br>
</p>
<p>I was in college myself and while I was pleased to have a range
of professors who had more going on than 99% of my small-town HS
teachers had, I was also offended by their often self-declared
status as "holders of the truth". While I'd signed up for as
many Math/Physics courses as I could, the liberal-arts nature of
the University seemed to think I'd do well to take a few courses
like Philosophy, Creative Writing, Anthropology, and even
Fencing. What I didn't factor in was how compelling those
courses of study would turn out to be for me *in spite of* their
obvious subjectivity. My math/physics profs got a pass from me
on the "holders of truth" thing because at the introductory level,
and the way math/physics *works*, there was little if *any* room
for me to imagine I might know more/different than they did. The
*really good* profs in the other disciplines really impressed me
*because* they had to be thinking all the time, not only about
their subject material but the responses from the class. A lot of
our discussions/questions/feedback *was* trite and I am sure
boring to them, but occasionally there would be spirited (and I
believed fruitful) discussions that I *never* had in my (hard)
science/math classes. <br>
</p>
<p>Trying to dredge up something more positive to say and perhaps,
more to the point, relevant to your specific experience with ZAMM,
I found the "Gumption Trap" a fairly trite thing, BUT by pointing
at the question of "Quality" I think it is a good place to spend
some time. I look forward to the possibility that this diverse
group (FriAM) of broad/deep thinkers will thrash this one at least
one more time at your prompt.</p>
<p>I do believe that Pirsig was the one who introduced me to the
concept of "The Tao" at a deeper level than I had read/heard it
before. I subsequently found Ray Smullyan's "The Tao is Silent"
which was easier for me to swallow as he came with his
Mathematician/Logician credentials and then the "I Ching"
(Wilhelm-Baynes 1977 edition) which I eventually adopted as a
ritual "Oracle" to joggle my brain/soul/heart a little now and
then. I also think that despite my quarrels with Pirsig/Phaedrus
(judgments of?) this work did soften me up and introduce me to the
kinds of questions best considered from a Taoist perspective (thus
the I Ching)? <br>
</p>
<p>I am also much more comfortable with Mysticism as an approach to
apprehending the world (not explaining, it, apprehending it) than
I was "back then". I never liked the "there are no Athiests in
Foxholes" but I do think that age and experience and perhaps most
importantly awareness of mortality does increase one's appetite or
receptiveness to "the mystical". Where I get hung up with
Conspiracists and Woo Peddlers is that they mistake "a good
question" for "an answer" and try to run with it as if there is
actually a "thing" for them to try to carry across some imagined
"finish line". <br>
</p>
<p>mumble,</p>
<p> - Sieve<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:045b01d795e2$ef936200$ceba2600$@gmail.com">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Not harsh at all, Dave. Just the kind of
variation in reading that I was interested in. For you,
apparently, the book was read for its possible insights into
eastern thought, and for that purpose, it wasn’t anything
special; I read it for its insights into philosophy
generally, and for that rather more naïve purpose, it was more
useful. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am trying to finish up my second
reading. I am in Oregon reading about Gumption Traps. Do you
remember gumption traps? The meme stuck in our family for
years, long after we had almost forgotten the book itself. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">We are working on a possible cat three
hurricane for Sunday, here, so I may go silent for a bit. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Where is Roger C? I worry for those in
peril on the seas. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof
David West<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 20, 2021 11:17 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] "ZAMM"<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Nick,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">my last
response was kind harsh.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Although,
I see little value in Pirsig's books, I am very interested
in the ideas or the inspirations you may have found in
them, and would welcome a discussion of those things and
perhaps the discovery of shared ideas/values/philosophies
that are common even if derived from different roots.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Aug 19, 2021, at 7:50 PM, Prof
David West wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" id="qt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Nick,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Like
Steve, I was gravely disappointed in the book. I had
been studying Eastern philosophies for nearly thirty
years when it was published so one level of
disappointment was the lack of anything new, even a new
perspective.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">The
whole mental illness / introspection / Phaedrus persona
/ son as mirror aspect elicited the same reaction as
Steve - what indulgence.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">The
book does echo some philosophical ideas — of which I
doubt Pirsig was aware — with regard Kata: the correct
way of doing things, of being, of interacting with the
world. There is Kata in Zen. and that is why it is not
the Ch'an Buddhism that was imported from China. I guess
that Pirsig resonated with this element, and that
informed his writing and his selection of title.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">The
subtitle with regard 'values' has no grounding, as far
as I can remember, in any aspect of Zen or other Eastern
mystical philosophy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Hope
others have more positive things to say, as it sounds
like this book was valuable to you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Aug 19, 2021, at 2:16 PM, Steve
Smith wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
id="qt-qt">
<p>Nick -<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I read it when it was fairly new and I was very young.
The interwebs (I mean, whatever vapid popular culture rode
on top of in those days) was aflutter and I was a
voracious reader, a motorcycle owner/rider/maintainer, and
I was enamored of the idea of eastern mysticism in spite
of the harsh and distorting filters Western pop culture
shoved it through before it could get to me. So of course
i read it. And of course I was disappointed.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I was hugely disappointed and annoyed by
Pirsig/Phaedrus. I did not ride motorcycles for the
reasons or in the way he did, nor did I maintain mine in
his fashion nor did I hold it up in the way he did. Of
course, Pirsig (and his character) were somewhat older
than I was and had had more time in life to F* up... he
just seemed like a self-indulgent F*-up to me, dragging
his son through the worst of it along with him. I was
also offended by all the hubub about the book... for the
most part I "just didn't get it". It just seemed like
more of our pop-culture's need to elevate a quite base
neopatriarchy: (e.g. Hemingway, Kerouac, HS Thompson,
Abbey, etc)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>When Mary moved here about 4 years ago, we (re)read ZAMM
together. In the intervening years I had learned a lot
more about mental illness including having direct
experience with people who had endured a great deal of it,
up to and including Electroshock Therapy. I had also
grown out of my motorcycle riding identity (in my 50s) but
still held onto fetishizing the spirit of something as
simple and "easy" to maintain as a (classic) motorcycle
(or auto). I had also read a lot more Greek (and other
Western/Eastern) Philosophy in the intervening years and
had my own ideas about "Quality" including Christopher
Alexander's ineffable "Quality Without a Name".<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I appreciated ZAMM/Pirsig/Phaedrus a lot more the second
time but still felt like it was somewhat self-indulgent.
To the extent that I know of Pirsig's subsequent unfolding
of a life (including his son's death) I felt more
sympathetic to what I had judged as F*up. It also helps
that I went on to F* up my own life repeatedly and
sometimes even recursively (yet I am still here, being
self-indulgent and judgemental).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>this was a nice obituary blog entry:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><a
href="https://douglastoft.com/robert-pirsig-on-coming-to-terms-with-the-death-of-his-son/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://douglastoft.com/robert-pirsig-on-coming-to-terms-with-the-death-of-his-son/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Another couple of (re) reads we did together were:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> Moby Dick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 8/19/21 1:46 PM, <a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Dave:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">As usual, my [conscious]
motives were not so high falutin’. As usual I am
trying to get others to think with me because I cannot
think alone. To the extent that I am a philosopher,
it probably is because of that book and I am really
interesting in the role it played in the lives of
others. For instance, one friend told me that his
response was to go out and buy a motor cycle. Also I
am interested in what a second reading, 40 plus years
would be like for each of you. It was quite a
revelation to me. So, as general, you give my
conscious mind too much credit. I can’t speak for the
unconscious one. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Stephen,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">If you mean, the original
Greek figure, no I don’t. He’s briefly described
somewhere in zamm as a sophist, but that’s already
more than I know. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">N<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephen Guerin<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August
19, 2021 3:26 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning
Applied Complexity Coffee Group <a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><friam@redfish.com></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM]
"ZAMM"<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Nick, <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">do you know Phaedrus? <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">On Wed, Aug 18, 2021,
7:46 PM <<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Colleagues,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">I wonder if Pirsig’s
<i>Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance </i>was
a thing for any of you, and if you would be
interested in pursuing a thread about it and,
if so, if you would be willing to get it down
off your shelf and flip through it, looking
for the parts you loved and the parts you
hated. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">N<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-.
.. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM Applied Complexity
Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn
GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
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<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM-COMIC <a
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<p class="MsoNormal">archives: <a
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<pre>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
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-..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></p>
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listserv<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
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