<div dir="auto"><div dir="auto">Yes, if you use Google Translate it takes you from fit to ataque (seizure) and back to attack. I would have said in Nick's case "Vamos a enfadar a Nick" or "Nick se va a volver trastornado" or one of several other expressions none of which contains "tener".</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Frank<br><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br>140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>Santa Fe, NM 87505<br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Aug 24, 2021, 6:09 PM Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">'Nick is </span><i style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">having </i><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">a fit, just
let him be." (I can't speak for other languages, but I assume
there are many others where that would be true.) </span>
<div dir="auto"><font face="sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div dir="auto"><font face="sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Nick está teniendo una
rabieta... In Spanish. Perfectly parallel to the English
version.<br>
</span></font></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>But if it were more appropriate to say "Nick is *throwing* a fit"
would the idiom transfer to Spanish?</p>
<p>I was literally just (hours ago) discussing the various words for
"strong/hard/firm" in Spanish with the man who helps me around the
property. Our language overlap is not good enough to discuss at
the level that occurs here, but "Fuerte", "Firma" and "Dura" all
came to mind. Given the context, all three fit the conversation
(discussing my choice of a juniper fencepost as a support for a
rick of firewood we were stacking.</p>
<p>Google Translate leads me to believe that "having a fit" is more
like "making an adjustment" while "throwing a fit" is like
"launching an attack". I suspect this represents the fundamental
weakness in automatic translation, not Google Translate alone.
It takes a bit of context or something to realize "throwing a fit"
can be dramatic but need not imply it is directed (attack) at
anyone aggresively? It seems (coincidentally) nuanced to think
of "having a fit" as making some kind of (internal?) adjustment to
one's emotional/mental state?</p>
<p>Your own (Frank's) understanding of the context(s) involved
allowed/required you to use "rabieta" (tantrum), though I would
ask if YOU think Nick is "having" or "doing" (or in my lingo
"throwing") un rabieta?</p>
<p>(nod of genial thanks to NST for letting us rib him mercilessly
in public).<br>
</p>
<p>mascullar balbucear, barbotear, o mascar?<br>
</p>
<p> Steve<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto"><br>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Aug 24, 2021, 9:37 AM
Eric Charles <<a href="mailto:eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">So.... This is JUST a question of whether we
are having a casual conversation or a technical one, right?
Certainly, in a casual, English-language conversation talk
of "having" emotions is well understood, and just fine, for
example "Nick is <i>having </i>a fit, just let him be." (I
can't speak for other languages, but I assume there are many
others where that would be true.)
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If we were, for some reason, having a technical
conversation about how the<i> Science of </i><i>Psychology</i>,
should use technical language, then we <i>might </i>also
come to all agree that isn't the best way to talk about
it. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In any case, the risk with "have" is that it reifies
whatever we are talking about. To talk about someone <i>having
</i>sadness, leads naturally --- linguistically naturally
--- in English --- to thinking that sadness is <i>a thing</i>
that I could find if I looked hard enough. It is why
people used to think (and many, many, still do) that if we
just looked hard enough at someone's brain, we would find
<i>the sadness</i> inside there, somewhere. That is why it
is dangerous in a technical conversation regarding
psychology, because that implication is wrong-headed in a
way that repeatedly leads large swaths of the field down
deep rabbit holes that they can't seem to get out of. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>On the one hand, I <i>have </i>a large ice mocha
waiting for me in the fridge. On the other hand, this
past summer I <i>had </i>a two-week long trip to
California. One is a straightforward object, the other
was an extended activity I engaged in. When the
robot-designers assert that their robot "has" emotions,
which do they mean? Honestly, I think they don't mean
either one, it is a marketing tool, and not part of a
conversation at all. As such, it does't really fit into
the dichotomy above, and is trying to play one off of
the other. They are using the terms "emotions and
instincts" to mean something even less than whatever
Tesla means when they say they have an autodrive that
for sure still isn't good enough to autodrive.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What the robot-makers mean is simply to indicate that
the robot will be a bit more responsive to certain
things that other models on the market, and <i>hopefully
</i>that's what most consumers understand it to mean.
But not all will... at least some of the people being
exposed to the marketing will take it to mean that
emotion has been successfully put somewhere inside the
robot. (The latter is a straightforward empirical claim,
and if you think I'm wrong about that, you have way too
much faith in how savvy 100% of people are.) As such,
the marketing should be annoying to anti-dualist
psychologists, who see it buttressing <i>at least some</i>
people's tendency to jump down that rabbit hole
mentioned above.</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at
10:48 AM <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Eric, </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Many points well taken. I am
particularly proud of being dope-slapped by Glen
about being overly narrow in my understanding of
“inside.” It was, as he said, a case of my failure
to fulfill my obligation as a thinker to steelman
any argument before I try to knock it down. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But let me turn Glen’s steel-man
obligation around. Aren’t you made uneasy when
people claim that to be private that which is
plainly present in their behavior? And doesn’t the
whole problem of “What it’s like to be a bat” and
“the hard problem” strike you as an effort to make
hay where the sun don’t shine?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If you do share those concerns,
and you worry that I have (as usual) overstated my
case, then that’s one kind of discussion; if you
don’t share them at all, then that’s a very
different conversation. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">My position on “the realm of the
mental” is laid out in many of my publications,
perhaps most concisely in the first few pages of <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312031901_Intentionality_is_the_mark_of_the_vital" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">Intentionality is the Mark
of the Mental"</a>.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It’s an old argument, going back
to Descartes. Do we see the world through our
minds, or do we see our minds through the world?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David Eric Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 24, 2021 7:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It’s the right kind of answer,
Nick, and I don’t find it compelling.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Put aside for a moment the use
of “have” as an auxiliary verb. I can come up
with wonderful reasons why that is both
informative and primordial, but I also believe
they are complete nonsense and only illustrate
that there are no good rules for reliable argument
in this domain.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Also, I don’t adopt the frame
of using the past tense as a device to skew the
argument toward the conclusion you started with.
(Now _there_ is a category error: to start with a
conclusion. Lawyer!) </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think probably throughout
Indo-European derived languages, “have” is used to
refer to inherent attributes. I have brown eyes.
I have eyes at all. It takes a surprisingly
convoluted construction to assert that someone
looking at my face will find two brown eyes there,
that doesn’t use “have” as the verb of
attribution. So that’s old, and it is something
the language has really committed to. I think you
have to commit unnatural acts to argue that that
is a verb of action.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Possession isn’t even a lot
more action-y. I have two turntables and a
microphone. If nobody is trying to take them from
me, it is not clear that I am “doing” anything to
“have” them.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(btw, I am not a metaphor
monist. I practice polysemy, like the Mormons.
So it seems completely natural that there can be
multiple meanings, if there are any meanings at
all, and that distinct ones can use the same word
because they are somehow similar despite not being
the self-same.) </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It seems to me as if the truest
action usage of “have” is one that is not nearly
as baked into the language. If I have lunch, I
eat lunch. If I have a fit, I throw a tantrum.
Many circumlocutions available to me. That also
could be quite idiosyncratic to small language
branches. I think you would never, in normal
speech, say you “had” lunch in German. You would
just say you ate lunch. (Or in Italian or French
either, for that matter.) These kinds of usages
do not seem to me to carry strong cognitive
weight.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So it seems to me that the
semantic core of “have” is probably attribution.
The legal sense of ownership is probably
metaphorical. It would not _at all_ surprise me
if the use both in the auxiliary (widespread in
IE) and in the deictic (French il y a, there is)
are deep metaphors describing either the ambient,
or the ineluctable structure of time, with
attributes.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">But, back to whether
attribution is natural for emotions (or, as good
as anything else, and better than most):</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If I “have” a sunny
disposition, that seems not far from having brown
eyes. Italian: Il ha un buon aspetto. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If I am having a bad day, that
is a little different from having brown eyes, and
perhaps closer to having a black eye. Not an
essence that defines my nature, but a condition I
can be in, or “take on". To say, indeed, that I
parse that as a pattern I carry around (as an
aspect of constitution or condition) does not seem
category-erroneous to me.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sure, there are patterns in my
behavior: if I take a hot shower and the water
lands on my black eye, I will wince. If you say
good morning and I am having a bad day, I will
growl at you. A Skinnerian can say that my
wincing is all there is to my black eye. But a
physician would tell me to put ice on it, and
would use the color of the bruise to indicate
which eye I should put the ice on.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">These uses of having seem tied
up, more closely than with anything else, with
uses of being, as SteveS mentioned. So the be/do
dichotomy seems to determine largely where the
verb usages split.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Of course, living is a process,
played out on organized structures. Brains
probably look different in eeg and electrode
arrays in one emotional condition than in another,
and they probably also have different
neurotransmitter profiles, and maybe other
things. Even You probably don’t want to refer to
a neurotransmitter concentration as a “doing”; It
is a variable of state, like a black eye is a
state of an eye. You might want to refer to the
brain action pattern as “doing”, but maybe only in
the sense that you refer to the existence of
non-dead metabolism as “doing” — they are both
processes. To me, the common language seems to
split the be and the do on brevity, transience,
isolation, or suddenness of an activity. I _am_
surly, and I _do_ growl at you. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If non-black English still
preserved the habitual tense, as John McWhorter
claims black American English still does, we might
be able to make a different kind of a distinction,
between the pattern or habit as a state, and the
event within it as an act. That might give an
even better account of the split in the common
language.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I also want to acknowledge
Glen’s points about working through many frames in
a dynamical way. I can’t add anything, but I do
agree.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Eric</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Aug 24, 2021, at 12:30
PM, <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
<<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Now wait a minute!
This is the sort of question I am supposed
to ask of you? A question to which the
answer is so obvious to the recipient that
he is in danger of not being able to
locate it. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Ok, so, their meanings
obviously overlap. If you tell me you
“had” a steak last night, I wont assume
that it’s available for us to eat
tonight: “had” is serving as a verb of
action. The situation is further
confused by the fact that both words are
used as helper words, i.e, words that
indicate the tense of another verb. To
say that I “have” gone and that I “done”
gone mean the same thing in different
dialects<span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In general the grammar
of the two words is different. If you say
I had something, I am sent looking for a
property, possession or attribute. If you
say I did something, I am sent looking for
an action I performed. So, there is a
vast inclination to make emotion words as
a reference to something we carry inside,
rather than a pattern in what we do. This
seems to me like misdirection, a category
error in Ryle’s terms. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Does that help? </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mumble, mumble, as
steve would say.<span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick<span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,JZI_rTsnO4PMxifIK-1Pc4gAtSO08UfA4WqKjx73T4Ek3tY5Xl71BUdt3A807uKgEplYNDHINHuRjmL2qnv7SkO_J10fWv5jebCjhCravg,,&typo=1" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b><span> </span>Friam
<<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span> </span></b>David
Eric Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Monday,
August 23, 2021 4:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span> </span>The Friday
Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re:
[FRIAM] Eternal questions</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick, what’s the
difference between having and doing?</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I once heard Ray
Jackendoff give quite a nice talk on
word categories. Of all of it, the one
part I remember the most about is what
he said about prepositions. Even after
you are getting right most of the rest
of word usage in a new language (or
handling it well with a dumb, rule-based
translator), you are still at sea in the
prepositions. Their scopes are not
completely arbitrary, but arbitrary in
such large part that speakers
essentially learn them nearly as a list
of ad hoc applications.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">But when we are in a
specialist domain, such as reference to
the unpacking of the convention-term
“emotion”, which we all know is a
different specialist domain from car
ownership or the consumption of lunch,
we know that verbs are not on any a
priori firmer ground than prepositions.
Or it seems to me, we should expect that
to be so.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am struck by how
widespread it is in languages to use the
same particle or other construction for
possession and attribution. Both in
concretes and in the abstractions that
seemingly derive from them. SteveG will
like this one from Chinese if I haven’t
messed it up or misunderstood it: youde
you, youde meiyou. Some have it, some
don’t.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Performance of an
act, being configured in a state or
condition, if we use passphrases rather
than passwords, we can discriminate many
categories.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So when we use
metaphors to expand the scope of
reference and discourse (to eventually
shed their metaphor status and become
true polysemes once our familiarity in
the new domain is such that, as
novelists say, it “stands up and casts
a shadow”), are some of the metaphors
more obligatory than others? Are the
psychologists sure they are right
about which ones? Are they right?</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Eric</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Aug 24,
2021, at 3:06 AM, <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
<<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAArgh!</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">How we seal
ourselves in caves of nonsense!</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">And emotion
is not something we “have”; it’s
something we do. Or, if you
prefer a dualist sensory
metaphor, it’s a particular mode
of feeling the world. <span> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">n</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,7HSjAiYZs0TskSYM3z8t3I3vm7JNBV7OyZgHYp-6EjYczSSRW9xIT6typjL4CJpU_atJnKNr9galrl_vRQGGlXHYIX3WqoquVu8Bpe1ntqUc&typo=1" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b><span> </span>Friam
<<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span> </span></b>Pieter
Steenekamp<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Monday,
August 23, 2021 6:04 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span> </span>The
Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re:
[FRIAM] Eternal questions</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The
creators of the Aibo robot dog
say it has ‘real emotions and
instinct’. This is obviously
not true, it's just an
illusion.<br>
<br>
But then, according to Daniel
Dennett, human consciousness
is just an illusion.<br>
<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fase.tufts.edu%2fcogstud%2fdennett%2fpapers%2fillusionism.pdf&c=E,1,wZyzI4xcowqEH1XfK9Q39EPbwHxfV11-EVaCCROdnuFD-hDpoJBA6vqVkaGgbd-yOuYwvTupjP_Soz_obIbOZjgWkLMocfZEa2BpUqNsBKBy&typo=1" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/illusionism.pdf</a></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon,
23 Aug 2021 at 09:18, Jochen
Fromm <<a href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">"In
today’s AI universe, all
the eternal questions
(about intentionality,
consciousness, free
will, mind-body
problem...) have become
engineering problems",
argues this Guardian
article. </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardian.com%2fscience%2f2021%2faug%2f10%2fdogs-inner-life-what-robot-pet-taught-me-about-consciousness-artificial-intelligence&c=E,1,0zM4mCzKmbes0weZLeJCmVy6dAfDvfYxSyHKpvl-aa8-hwd84lMymcY9HHVsp4jXbWOCjmb3kQDLfcwUGjHCouKd8sNTTfFuQtv62vY-RfAsXg,,&typo=1" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/aug/10/dogs-inner-life-what-robot-pet-taught-me-about-consciousness-artificial-intelligence</a></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-J.</p>
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