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<p class="MsoNormal">A woman brings in her husband to an ER having a heart attack, and she shows the staff vaccinations record for both of them, versus a man that obviously has COVID and his wife says there was no vaccination, and they never would consider
it. All things being equal if a choice is needed to take one first (because of lack of capacity), why should a nurse or doctor prioritize the person who makes it clear they have chosen to endanger the hospital workers? There are interviews in the news lately
with such people, some of them now dead. I can dig them up if you want.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yes, I understand there are practicalities make this hard to make policy, but as a thought experiment, why give a shit about the latter? Given finite resources, some decisions about how to deploy staff have to be made. Do these resources
go to the COVID wing or not?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Prof David West<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> friam@redfish.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Explain themselves to _____? To you? For the purpose of _______? Securing your approval?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1">They need to explain themselves, and it is entirely appropriate to make their lives risky and inconvenient until they do.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:07 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of his words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face seem to equate anti-vax
and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a sense I was trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket and absolute assertion.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">However, the entire tenor of the thread, and the public rhetoric regarding people holding anti-vax positions seems, to me, to be grounded in exactly this kind of assertion:
"if <u>you</u> (a person) are anti-vax <u>you</u> are stupid (and probably a Trumpista or at least a Republican).</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">In my opinion this kind of assertion is wrong, harmful, and, if your goal is to increase vaccination rates, entirely counter-productive.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 10:55 AM, u\u01ddl\u0183
</span></span><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif">\u2624</span></span><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>$ wrote:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> conflation. I don't.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished. </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> story of Job is a stupid story.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning, </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> slightest sense of that word.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and "self-preservation". There is something incoherent about asserting that stupid people need to be punished,
because one of the salient features of stupidity is an inability to learn from experience. </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts?</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> -- </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
</span></span><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif">\u2624</span></span><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>$ u\u01ddl\u0183</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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