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<p>In the spirit of multiple frequencies/scales or qualitative
dimensions/modes of aggregation:<br>
</p>
<p>What about the concern that habituating (and/or coercing) the
entire population of first-world (and much of third world)
countries to accepting (eagerly?) something which could credibly
be as nefarious as *another* pandemic or maybe a CRISPR-Cas9
edit? <br>
</p>
<p>I'm not saying that *I* am acutely worried about this, but rather
that such a worry is not as absurd as it might sound.</p>
<p>Having hosted a conspiracy nut in my house for over a year, I'm
at least sensitive to the logic. I don't, for example, worry
that the flouride/chlorine/bromine treatments used in "city
water" is part of a nefarious plot for mass mind control by the
illuminati. But I *do* acknowledge that if such a plot were afoot
(by anyone) the drinking water supply might be a good vector to
spread such a thing very rapidly (though these days, the
bottled-water supply might penetrate deeper/faster). <br>
</p>
<p>So am I worried that *this* vaccine round is
sterilizing/mind-controlling/RFID-injecting people? No. But am
I worried that becoming habituated to one (or many) required
vaccine treatments on an annual (or seasonal?) opens a door to
something potentially *very* nefarious? Yes. How do we mitigate
that? <br>
</p>
<p>If you want to refuse this vaccine, great, just accept
masking/isolation in it's place and don't be surprised if when you
have a car accident that there are a finite number of beds in the
ER/ICU set aside for unvaccinated people which will likely be
overwhelmed with people coming in with acute COVID symptoms (since
everyone else is either not contracting COVID or not having severe
symptoms)...</p>
<p>Can we acknowledge that "just because we are paranoid, that
doesn't mean nobody might be out to get us"?<br>
</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/26/21 10:18 AM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
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<p class="MsoNormal">Anti-vax needs a justification that can
survive peer review. Because Tucker said so and I have a
right to my liberty, etc. is not a justification. One might
be a concern about inflammation. The vaccine will stimulate
IGG-M production which could exacerbate some auto-immune
conditions, and I have that auto-immune condition. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Prof David West<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 26, 2021 8:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Glen
stated:<i> "Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."</i><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Is it
correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to
stupidity in all cases without exception?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Such an
interpretation would certainly be consistent with the
prevailing rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two
groups: Them the stupid and Us the enlightened.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Am I, for
example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being
anti-vax, for me personally?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">[BTW, my
analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from
getting vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so
was simply a matter of coercion.]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">On Thu,
Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ
</span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI
Symbol",sans-serif">☤</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>$
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> Any
place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital
inpatient <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> or
PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or
PCR test <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be
painful.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> But
re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of
silliness.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> On
8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >
They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity,
or they'd have sufficient capacity. Through a triage
process they can prioritize. It must happen already,
even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug addict is here
again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of
the doctors. If enough big organizations like hospitals,
grocery stores, etc. simply refuse to patronize people
without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't need to be
a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people
getting allergy shots, getting physical therapy,
eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No shirt, no shoes, no
vaccination, no service.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >
-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >
From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >
To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >
That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the
vaccine is largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old
kid comes in unconscious with a gunshot wound, it's
difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >
Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat
whoever walks in the door, even if they don't have
insurance. To make the change you suggest would require
major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the
laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that
anytime soon.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >
Taking a look at this site: <a
href="https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >
it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower
than I thought. The actual problem is insufficient buffer
capacity, not the surge in covid patients. The covid
patients are simply demonstrating the problem.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >
On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>> Will you consent to a vaccine? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>> Yes: You get treatment for your non-COVID
condition. No: Get lost. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>> -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>> From: Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>> To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>> Because the majority of the patients in the ERs
are not covid patients. (Last I heard the percentages were
around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm sure it's location
dependent.) They're regular people with regular problems,
many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to
lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time"
logistical planning with our hospitals and this fairly
tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high
enough.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>> The smart thing to do is increase capacity,
correct the buffer size, and take care of both covid
patients and regular people.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>> On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>>> Why should we increase the capacity of the
hospitals? Just don't let them in.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>>> -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>>> From: Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>>> To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>>> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out
of it. If it's a normal, everyday thing, yeah sure. But if
it's some litmus test for who's with us or who's against
us, then they're much less willing to submit to such
tests.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>>> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the
protests. In Portland, they antifa are rigorous about
staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in
and be more committed to protesting, which makes the
antifa more committed, ad infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's
mostly just the fascists out there protesting mask and
vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result,
they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>>> Along the same lines of "don't feed the
troll", if we focused our attention on increasing the
capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the
anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily
and the reactionary tendencies of the anti-vaxers would
abate.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>>> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
>>>> These same people are willing to submit
to an employer's drug tests.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> -- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> </span><span
style="font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif">☤</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>$
uǝlƃ<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> -
.... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> Zoom
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href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
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href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>
archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
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<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
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