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<p class="MsoNormal">A public servant remarked to me that their boss mostly does things to pacify unreasonable people. This in turn encourages more unreasonable behavior. The agency of the unreasonable people is characterized by how much disruption they
can cause, not by the inherent value of the goals that they have. The goals are just a temporary means by which to demonstrate their agency and process their feelings of alienation. I suggest that this neediness at some point becomes toxic and cannot be
repaired. At a company, those people get fired.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>David Eric Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 26, 2021 3:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Those who seek cooperative or collaborative support, jointly generated, from others, should explain themselves to all as contributing a part of the joint effort, collaboration, and mutual responsibility.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The same argument applies to not being exploitative in wage negotiations, poisoning backyards that can’t efford to push it off, colonialism, etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I still think that what one doesn’t know is secondary to the point, though. This is all about holding a position that the society you live in is illegitimate, and wanting to act out your animosity toward it or contempt for it, as a kind
of defiant expression of some kind of agency. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Max Rose, I think it was, had some sort of good comment about this. We have to break out of the death spiral of having this as the motivation if we are to break out of the death spiral.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Eric<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Aug 27, 2021, at 4:22 AM, Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Explain themselves to _____? To you? For the purpose of _______? Securing your approval?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">They need to explain themselves, and it is entirely appropriate to make their lives risky and inconvenient until they do.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Friam
<<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Prof David West<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Sent:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Thursday,
August 26, 2021 12:07 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">To:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Subject:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Re:
[FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of his words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face seem to equate anti-vax
and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a sense I was trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket and absolute assertion.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">However, the entire tenor of the thread, and the public rhetoric regarding people holding anti-vax positions seems, to me, to be grounded in exactly this kind of assertion:
"if</span></span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="font"><u><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">you</span></u></span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">(a
person) are anti-vax</span></span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="font"><u><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">you</span></u></span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">are
stupid (and probably a Trumpista or at least a Republican).</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">In my opinion this kind of assertion is wrong, harmful, and, if your goal is to increase vaccination rates, entirely counter-productive.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 10:55 AM, uǝlƃ</span></span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif">☤</span></span><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>$
wrote:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> conflation. I don't.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished. </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> story of Job is a stupid story.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning, </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> slightest sense of that word.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a></span></span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">wrote:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and "self-preservation". There is something incoherent about asserting that stupid people need to be punished,
because one of the salient features of stupidity is an inability to learn from experience. </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts?</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> -- </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">></span></span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif">☤</span></span><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>$
uǝlƃ</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,_gXhctQxZmaJkmKeeWm3dibxB0WMDS9JefrAV4WTSzDGSqdf82GtrPQyLE4qtDXgrdWj13voJdwwCTsKVsoOB7HP1JjjOLHHg1wSszSOYTqtjw,,&typo=1">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> un/subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,UjSlySURNv54_4f1Pob-CF7Y9Yceh380A3sa4BdG_ymNna1Dy7L5EqLoE16qvM8YkV-29I1WOIFEbxHRoExvq6RMxluJGOPbDBNe_W6OPljA&typo=1">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,Q7aeAPPpi3CKkC4ZSHRmoHFM9BauMvL7MAANDxZxQJSG3WotfJ_1mhVgodYdYCQNUh9BWMCZyeLPYlDDSWOWHmf0T-au8PtClTuaRAPt2PjGZW7I4IF-T4nmo2Lf&typo=1">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,Yr5AWMNuby0nfVW1FtpJBDSREwBbk7co-Km2PzienUnrT6NH0804AP6Vn2_rE7RPr9zjRE7ChyQFf3pHmNxJvhyDaRjw-kRmK1sacx-VJ-LIirl9DHszuC70Mg2x&typo=1">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">un/subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,TPIN4uXg5tkG3Houfsb5eoNv6gFxfMuGZdtrS_wBhhVvyBJ70jFSxJS9vBJ1gPMipaZnWECWK2mRX7_Po1Ch9Y6EdGIIewAOm6GRhHNqIFc_jEPNjAIqhbeq&typo=1">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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