<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>Sarbajit -</p>
<p>I've been hoping to hear from you on this topic during this
time. One of the things I most value about this list is the wide
geographical distribution of our members, not to mention the
handful of cultural outliers such as yourself. Your own unique
positioning in the sociopolitical/technical spectrum seems often
to provide some useful parallax to us (mostly old white men from
wealthy anglophone countries). <br>
</p>
<p>You once before invoked your Adi Brahmin heritage/practice during
a discussion I think of the widespread genetic contribution of
Ghengis Khan. <br>
</p>
<p>I appreciate the care with which you have introduced these facts
and perspectives into a larger culture (well, maybe not larger,
but a tiny sliver of a larger culture) which finds them somewhat
antithetical (i.e. politically incorrect). <br>
</p>
<p>If I understand your points from both discussions correctly:</p>
<ol>
<li>Genetic "purity" (a Western description) is important to your
religious/cultural group and it is maintained through myriad
practices that the West often finds "backward" or
"wrongheaded". <br>
</li>
<li>Microorganismal/biome health is also maintained by myriad
practices that the West may find ... etc. Untouchability
(which, like Nick, I have only the most superficial awareness
of) and the kinds of in-group isolation that I presume are
almost impossible to maintain without elite status in a context
such as modern India (perhaps anywhere?)</li>
</ol>
<p> I'm not trying to instigate an argument among us over this
point, just framing it as best I can, and trying to open a larger
discussion about the question of socio-cultural-spiritually
practices and how well subsets of a continuously globalizing
humanity can maintain internal coherence whilst engaging with the
larger "homogenizing"? group.</p>
<p>I might also highlight DaveW's contribution to the Ghengis Khan
discussion that "normalized" what most (all?) of us would call
rape in the context of the Mongol conquests (and perhaps warfare
of all kinds over millenia?). Similarly, DaveW's unique (I think
to this group) positioning as having born and raised within the
Latter Day Saints subculture of rural Utah which carries it's own
unique practices (some extant, others mostly vestigal) around a
particular style of Patriarchy (including Polygamy).</p>
<p>Pieter brings us the perspective of a professional class South
African which seems to have it's own uniquely asqew (I don't mean
this perjoratively) basis space of assumptions, values,
judgements. <br>
</p>
<p>I realize I am probably fumble/mumble/bumbling all this to the
point that the discussion I'm hoping to provoke will not happen,
but I felt your uniquely *oblique* POV in this might be a good
opportunity to try to stimulate this discussion (yet again).</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/26/21 2:47 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABun1LwLcneVefZn1K73Om4XqQ0kmCFX29daoGuvPVagXrFYYg@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I can give
you some more context citing my personal experience<br>
</span><br>
</div>
I stay in a spacious (for India) gated-off apartment complex
in New Delhi, with 90 apartments and about 400 residents.
About 25% of the apartments have retired doctors from India's
premier hospitals, and we're mostly educated professionals
well clued in to take precautions..<br>
<br>
In the first COVID wave which peaked in Sept 2020 we had 2
infections and no deaths. In the second wave which peaked in
May 2021, we had about 75 known infections (of which 25 needed
hospitalization) and 8 COVID deaths in my apartment complex
alone. Similar numbers happened in the surrounding apartment
complexes. My father-in-law who stays in a similar apartment
complex a mile away was hospitalised for 10 days with COVID
this May at the peak but luckily pulled through at age 82
years. He only got a hospital bed because he was Indian Army
while other patients were being turned away in droves before
my eyes.<br>
<br>
</div>
Sarbajit<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 1:56
PM Sarbajit Roy <<a href="mailto:sroy.mb@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">sroy.mb@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Pieter<br>
<br>
</span></div>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">The
official statistics for India are quite
(grossly) inaccurate. We can <b>conservatively</b>
multiply the number of infections by x10 and the
number of deaths by x3. <br>
</span></div>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">While
the statistics are comparatively better maintained
in the urban areas, in the rural areas there is
massive under-reporting and people were dying like
flies.<br>
</span></div>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">There is
inadequate testing capacity and health
infrastructure in the rural areas and we estimate
the death rate at between 6% to 12% of the
population in certain states.<br>
<br>
</span></div>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">My own
uncle, a retired Indian Army doctor aged about 81
years, was the only doctor left for a radius of 100 km
in a densely populated state because the regular
doctors had</span><span
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"> either fled or
died of COVID. He expired 2 months ago, of COVID,
while still in the saddle attending patients. </span><br>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"></span></div>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Sarbajit</span><br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at
12:31 PM Pieter Steenekamp <<a
href="mailto:pieters@randcontrols.co.za" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">pieters@randcontrols.co.za</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Sarbajit,<br>
<br>
When covid started I was very worried about India with
it's high population density. But according to <a
href="https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries</a>
the deaths/1M population in India is 313. In the USA,
for example, the figure is 1950 deaths/1M population. <br>
<br>
Further, according to <a
href="https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/</a>
India seems to be dodging the delta variant, because the
daily new cases has been dropping since May and seems to
be staying low. <br>
<br>
My point is, India seems to be doing relatively less bad
than many other countries. <br>
<br>
Then, there seems to be relatively high prophylactic and
early treatment use of ivermectin in India. <br>
Refer to:
<div><a
href="https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/</a><br>
<a
href="https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/05/11/indian-state-will-offer-ivermectin-to-entire-adult-population---even-as-who-warns-against-its-use-as-covid-19-treatment/?sh=18acd8956d9f"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/05/11/indian-state-will-offer-ivermectin-to-entire-adult-population---even-as-who-warns-against-its-use-as-covid-19-treatment/?sh=18acd8956d9f</a></div>
<div><a
href="https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/</a></div>
<div><a
href="https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-ivermectin-blackout---part-iii-the-lesson-of-kerala/article_ccecb97e-044e-11ec-9112-2b31ae87887a.html"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-ivermectin-blackout---part-iii-the-lesson-of-kerala/article_ccecb97e-044e-11ec-9112-2b31ae87887a.html</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'd like to have your views on this. Is there a
possible causal link between the use of ivermectin and
low new covid infections in India?<br>
<br>
Pieter</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at
04:42, Sarbajit Roy <<a
href="mailto:sroy.mb@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">sroy.mb@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div><font size="4">Hi<br>
<br>
</font></div>
<font size="4">I would like to give you an "Asian"
(perhaps culturally distasteful) perspective on
this from India.<br>
<br>
India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of
COVID-19 infections and deaths after the USA.<br>
<br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4">However, within India, there is
a small class of people, like me, called Adi
Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste, who don't wear
masks or take clinically unproven or untested
vaccinations, mainly because we continually
practice an ancient non-contact system known as
UNTOUCHABILITY. Since Brahmins are traditionally
the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we
have known about virii, fomites, their modes of
transmission, and how they cause infection and
disease for centuries and we knew this
empirically even before microscopes were
invented. <br>
<br>
The rules and concepts of untouchability are
drilled into Brahmin children from infancy, and
we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned
by law in India. And it's not as if we dont
believe in Western medicine systems or science,
I was drilled by my grandfather who was the
Director General of India's Armed Forces ( ..
aka Surgeon General of India), to the extent
that even the metal cutlery at his dining table
was "autoclaved" before we used them.<br>
<br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4">The people who are contracting
and dying of COVID in India are the ones who are
fated to do so because of their own foolishness
and ignorance, and also because India's
government wanted them to die. <a
href="https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563</a></font></div>
<div><font size="4"><br>
Sarbajit Roy<br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4">New Delhi, India</font><br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 26,
2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore <<a
href="mailto:gil.densmore@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gil.densmore@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to
ask. Personally I think the science and tech
around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human
side: It is amazingly cool what people can do
what we decide to do so.</div>
<div>you bring up a good point! I watched
youtube videos from people that made the
vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a
translation on what it meant to map the
genetics. RNA. mRNA. And when I learned how
safe the vaccine was. Then I decided I
couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds
like that's the opposite what some people are
doing. It sounds like the hear: this was made
using new medical technology, that hasn't
neneded to be tested outside of labs until
now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt.
Which is a shame.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Aug
25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">They aren't
under a mandate to have sufficient capacity,
or they'd have sufficient capacity. Through
a triage process they can prioritize. It
must happen already, even if it isn't legal.
Oh, the local drug addict is here again. That
guy is probably not #1 for the attention of
the doctors. If enough big organizations like
hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply refuse
to patronize people without evidence of
vaccination, there doesn't need to be a
mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are
people getting allergy shots, getting physical
therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No shirt,
no shoes, no vaccination, no service.<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$<br>
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side<br>
<br>
That's just nonsense. By the time you're at
the ER, the vaccine is largely irrelevant.
Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in
unconscious with a gunshot wound, it's
difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated
or not.<br>
<br>
Anyway, most large hospitals are under a
mandate to treat whoever walks in the door,
even if they don't have insurance. To make the
change you suggest would require major
legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect
the laws that govern public medicine. You're
not gonna do that anytime soon.<br>
<br>
Taking a look at this site: <a
href="https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours</a><br>
it seems the ratio of covid patients is
actually lower than I thought. The actual
problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not
the surge in covid patients. The covid
patients are simply demonstrating the problem.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
> Will you consent to a vaccine? <br>
> <br>
> Yes: You get treatment for your
non-COVID condition. No: Get lost. <br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$<br>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM<br>
> To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side<br>
> <br>
> Because the majority of the patients in
the ERs are not covid patients. (Last I heard
the percentages were around 60-70% are
non-covid. But I'm sure it's location
dependent.) They're regular people with
regular problems, many of whom delayed medical
treatments for a year due to lockdowns. We did
a little too much "just in time" logistical
planning with our hospitals and this fairly
tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer
wasn't high enough.<br>
> <br>
> The smart thing to do is increase
capacity, correct the buffer size, and take
care of both covid patients and regular
people.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
>> Why should we increase the capacity
of the hospitals? Just don't let them in.<br>
>><br>
>> -----Original Message-----<br>
>> From: Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$<br>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25
AM<br>
>> To: <a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!?
side<br>
>><br>
>> Well, only if you don't make a big
stink out of it. If it's a normal, everyday
thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test
for who's with us or who's against us, then
they're much less willing to submit to such
tests.<br>
>><br>
>> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the
protests. In Portland, they antifa are
rigorous about staging counter protests, which
makes the fascists dig in and be more
committed to protesting, which makes the
antifa more committed, ad infinitum. Here in
Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out
there protesting mask and vaccine mandates.
(Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result, they're
anticlimactic and peter out pretty
comfortably.<br>
>><br>
>> Along the same lines of "don't feed
the troll", if we focused our attention on
increasing the capacities of hospitals rather
than brow beating the anti-vaxers, I suspect
the vax rate would climb steadily and the
reactionary tendencies of the anti-vaxers
would abate.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
>>> These same people are willing to
submit to an employer's drug tests.<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
☤>$ uǝlƃ<br>
<br>
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.
.... . .-. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a
href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: <a
href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.
.... . .-. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a
href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: <a
href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... .
.-. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a
href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: <a
href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-.
.<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a
href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: <a
href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a
href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
un/subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>