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<p class="MsoNormal">Anti-vax needs a justification that can survive peer review. Because Tucker said so and I have a right to my liberty, etc. is not a justification. One might be a concern about inflammation. The vaccine will stimulate IGG-M production
which could exacerbate some auto-immune conditions, and I have that auto-immune condition. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Prof David West<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 26, 2021 8:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> friam@redfish.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Glen stated:<i> "Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."</i><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in all cases without exception?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us the enlightened.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being anti-vax, for me personally?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">[BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from getting vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a matter of coercion.]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ
</span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif">☤</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>$ wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It must happen already, even if it isn't legal.
Oh, the local drug addict is here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't need
to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her
if she's been vaccinated or not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest would require major legislative effort
and, perhaps, re-architect the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > Taking a look at this site: <a href="https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours">https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating
the problem.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> > On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >> Will you consent to a vaccine? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >> Yes: You get treatment for your non-COVID condition. No: Get lost. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >> -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >> From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >> To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >> Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm sure it's location dependent.) They're regular
people with regular problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time" logistical planning with our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high enough.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >> The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and take care of both covid patients and regular people.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >> On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >>> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals? Just don't let them in.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >>> -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >>> From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >>> To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >>> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or who's against us, then they're much less
willing to submit to such tests.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >>> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in and be more committed to protesting,
which makes the antifa more committed, ad infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result, they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >>> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would
climb steadily and the reactionary tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >>> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> >>>> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> -- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> </span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif">☤</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>$ uǝlƃ<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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