<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Those who seek cooperative or collaborative support, jointly generated, from others, should explain themselves to all as contributing a part of the joint effort, collaboration, and mutual responsibility.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The same argument applies to not being exploitative in wage negotiations, poisoning backyards that can’t efford to push it off, colonialism, etc.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I still think that what one doesn’t know is secondary to the point, though. This is all about holding a position that the society you live in is illegitimate, and wanting to act out your animosity toward it or contempt for it, as a kind of defiant expression of some kind of agency. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Max Rose, I think it was, had some sort of good comment about this. We have to break out of the death spiral of having this as the motivation if we are to break out of the death spiral.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Eric</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 27, 2021, at 4:22 AM, Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" class="">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class="">Explain themselves to _____? To you? For the purpose of _______? Securing your approval?<br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class="qt-WordSection1"><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">They need to explain themselves, and it is entirely appropriate to make their lives risky and inconvenient until they do.<br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <br class=""></div><div class=""><div style="border-color: rgb(225, 225, 225) currentcolor currentcolor; border-style: solid none none; border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-image-outset: 0; border-image-repeat: stretch; border-image-slice: 100%; border-image-source: none; border-image-width: 1; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"></p><div class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration-line: underline; text-decoration-style: solid; text-decoration-color: currentcolor; text-decoration-thickness: auto;" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Prof David West<br class=""></div><div class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:07 PM<br class=""></div><div class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration-line: underline; text-decoration-style: solid; text-decoration-color: currentcolor; text-decoration-thickness: auto;" class="">friam@redfish.com</a><br class=""></div><div class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <br class=""></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of his words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face seem to equate anti-vax and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a sense I was trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket and absolute assertion.</span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">However, the entire tenor of the thread, and the public rhetoric regarding people holding anti-vax positions seems, to me, to be grounded in exactly this kind of assertion: "if<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class="">you</u><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(a person) are anti-vax<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class="">you</u><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>are stupid (and probably a Trumpista or at least a Republican).</span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">In my opinion this kind of assertion is wrong, harmful, and, if your goal is to increase vaccination rates, entirely counter-productive.</span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">davew</span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 10:55 AM, uǝlƃ<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: "Segoe UI Symbol", sans-serif;">☤</span></span><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">>$ wrote:</span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> conflation. I don't.</span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished. </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> story of Job is a stupid story.</span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning, </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> slightest sense of that word.</span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration-line: underline; text-decoration-style: solid; text-decoration-color: currentcolor; text-decoration-thickness: auto;" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:</span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and "self-preservation". There is something incoherent about asserting that stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of stupidity is an inability to learn from experience. </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> > </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts?</span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> -- </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: "Segoe UI Symbol", sans-serif;">☤</span></span><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">>$ uǝlƃ</span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> </span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .</span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span></span><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,_gXhctQxZmaJkmKeeWm3dibxB0WMDS9JefrAV4WTSzDGSqdf82GtrPQyLE4qtDXgrdWj13voJdwwCTsKVsoOB7HP1JjjOLHHg1wSszSOYTqtjw,,&typo=1" style="color: blue; 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