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<p>I thought Glen made a good bid for "respect" over "equality".
The aphorism "we optimize what we measure" seems apropos.
Equality IS (at best?) a roll-up measure of other things. Noting
inequality (of income, of assets, of access to opportunity, of
treatment by due process, etc.) is useful to determine how well
one is doing on the factors that *lead* to (in)equaity. Treating
equality itself as the goal (not simply a rule-of-thumb estimate
of how well one is doing at other goals) can lead to focusing on
the wrong things.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/27/21 9:16 AM, Prof David West
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:f299d524-e4f0-441d-bce5-0dbdf3956550@www.fastmail.com">
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">OK, curmudgeon and misanthrope
that I am, I still must ask:<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Why this obsession with
"equality?"<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Outside of the abstraction of
math, no one thing is equal, in any sense, to another, let alone
all members of a set of things being equal to each other.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Narrowing our attention to human
beings. it has already been noted that the dimensions of
potential inequality are myriad. It would be impossible to
"equalize" all dimensions simultaneously, so pick one, income
for example, and equalize on that dimension.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">To what end? What outcome would
you expect to see? Why would it not be the case that every
possible outcome would result in persistent "inequalities"
because all the other dimensions of difference would swamp your
'independent variable' of income?<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">No two human beings are created
equal, let alone all "men." (sic) But the unfounded conviction
that this must be 'true' demands the invention of myth to
explain why it is not. And those myths are, in my opinion,
harmful and divisive.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">I agree with Pieter (and probably
everyone else on this list) that the current state of income
inequality is evil and untenable. But, I would disagree with any
means of rectifying the situation that is grounded in any kind
of myth of individual human "equality."<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div>On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, at 1:34 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style="">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>If you just look at the world then "all [persons] are
created equal" is just nonsense. What I like to focus on is
what can we as a society do, and what can I personally do to
move towards making all more equal? It's obviously not
practical to expect heaven on earth, but IMO the current
state of inequality is just not acceptable, but that's no
reason to do nothing. For now I just address the first one,
what can we as a society do?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The current state of politics is to a large extent driven
by ideology and I would like to see a movement towards a
more practical, and humble approach. Like an approach based
on the philosophy behind the 2019 economic Nobel prize
winners Banerjee, Duflo and Kremer. Their approach to reduce
global poverty is experiment-based, taken from science. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I quote from <a
href="https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2019/10/14/nobel-prize-in-economics-won-by-trio-tackling-global-poverty/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2019/10/14/nobel-prize-in-economics-won-by-trio-tackling-global-poverty/</a>
:<br>
</div>
<div>"Their work, which tackles one of humanities most
pressing issues, is based on the idea that to battle
poverty, the issues should be broken down into smaller
pieces and studied via small field experiments to answer
precise questions within the communities who are most
affected."<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Another quote:<br>
</div>
<div>"Poor people are supposed to be either completely
desperate or lazy or entrepreneurial but people don’t – we
don’t try to … understand the deep root and interconnected
root of poverty." - Esther Duflo<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't mind if anybody wants to understand the deep
root and interconnected root of poverty, it's just that I
personally, like Esther Duflo, like to focus on what to do
about it.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Pieter<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="qt-gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="qt-gmail_attr">On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 at
05:07, <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="qt-gmail_quote"
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,
204,
204);border-left-style:solid;border-left-width:1px;padding-left:1ex;">
<div style="overflow-wrap:break-word;" lang="EN-US">
<div class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473WordSection1">
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">Dave,<br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">This is, of course, exactly the
opposite of my creation myth in which the slate is
wiped clean after every generation. But it would
explain a belief system in which well-being was the
deserved reward of having lived well in a previous
life. <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">While I am here, please let me
point out that “equal in law” seems a rather
constrained understanding “born equal”, given
especially that the passage goes on to add equality in
law (well rights, actually) as an additional
endowment. <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473quotation">“… and
they are endowed by their Creator by certain <span
style="color:red;background-color:yellow;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:0%;background-repeat:repeat;background-attachment:scroll;background-image:none;background-size:auto;background-origin:padding-box;background-clip:border-box;">rights,
</span><span
style="color:red;background-color:yellow;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:0%;background-repeat:repeat;background-attachment:scroll;background-image:none;background-size:auto;background-origin:padding-box;background-clip:border-box;">including
</span><span
style="color:red;background-color:yellow;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:0%;background-repeat:repeat;background-attachment:scroll;background-image:none;background-size:auto;background-origin:padding-box;background-clip:border-box;">life,
liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.</span><span
style="color:red;"> </span><br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">Where is John Dobson when we
need him. Could somebody please forward this note to
him. I don’t have his email address here with me.<br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">Thanks, <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">Nick <br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">Nick Thompson<br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193);">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193);">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><br>
</p>
</div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-top-color:rgb(225,
225,
225);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;">
<div><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<br>
</div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 26, 2021 10:17 PM<br>
</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are
created equal"<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="font" style="font-family:Arial,
sans-serif;">Purely from my academic
understanding of the subject; the Nick that is,
at this moment / in this incarnation, is a
product of karma accrued and shed over multiple
instances of existence. Hence, what you are now
is precisely what you <u>deserve</u> to be. All
persons may have been created equal some untold
incarnations ago and before they had any
opportunity to accrete karma.</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="font" style="font-family:Arial,
sans-serif;"> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="font" style="font-family:Arial,
sans-serif;">davew</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="font" style="font-family:Arial,
sans-serif;"> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span
class="font" style="font-family:Arial,
sans-serif;"> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 2:04
PM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>
wrote:<br>
</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;"
id="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473qt">
<div>
<p
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473qt-msonormal1">Sarbajit,<br>
</p>
<p
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473qt-msonormal1"> <br>
</p>
<p
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473qt-msonormal1">If
I understand the shape of the globe correctly, you
are waking up pretty soon, and I would like to
pick up the conversation about caste, if you don’t
mind. <br>
</p>
<p
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473qt-msonormal1"> <br>
</p>
<p
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473qt-msonormal1">I
believe the proposition in the subject line.
Given the many ways that proposition can be
understood as plainly false, I feel that my belief
in it must be defended.<br>
</p>
<p
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473qt-msonormal1"> <br>
</p>
<p
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473qt-msonormal1">In
what sense equal? Not in genes. Not in uterine
environment. . Not in early nutrition and
cognitive stimulation. Not in social capitol. Not
in financial capitol. Not in access to health
care. Not in exposure to future parasites. Not
in almost anything that I can think of. So, why
is the aphorism not just nonsense.<br>
</p>
<p
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473qt-msonormal1"> <br>
</p>
<p
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473qt-msonormal1">I
find, that if I examine my thinking in this
matter, a very primitive metaphysics about the
moment of an individual’s creation. What follows
is flagrantly silly, but here it is. On my
account, at the moment of birth a soul is taken
out of storage and assigned to a body. By
“person” in the aphorism, I mean the combination
of a particular soul with the particular body.
These assignments are at random. So, for good or
ill, no soul deserves the body it gets. I cannot
claim credit for my genes, my good uterine
environment, my social capitol, my financial
capitol, my bad hip, the draft deferment it
provided, my getting a phd at absolute peak of
demand for phd’s, my good education, even my FRIAM
membership. They are all consequences of that
initial, random assignment. Now YOU may credit
me in some ways, because knowing that all these
advantages have been assigned to me may make me
useful or pleasing (or the opposite) in many ways,
and that may bring me the advantages of your
association. But <span
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473font"><span
style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:Wingdings;">è</span></span></span>
I <span class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473font"><span
style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:Wingdings;">ç</span></span></span>
do not <span
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473font"><span
style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:Wingdings;">è</span></span></span>deserve<span
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473font"><span
style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:Wingdings;">ç</span></span></span>
those advantages. <br>
</p>
<p
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473qt-msonormal1"> <br>
</p>
<p
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473qt-msonormal1">This
odd metaphysics leads me to enormous gratitude for
the life I have been allowed to live and great
sympathy for rigorous taxation of the advantaged,
so that so much a soul’s future is not determined
by that moment of assignment.<br>
</p>
<p
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473qt-msonormal1"> <br>
</p>
<p
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473qt-msonormal1">I
have no idea what happens to this primitive
metaphysics if I try to integrate it with my
monism. The religious scholars among you might
recognize as some backass weird perversion of
Calvinism. <br>
</p>
<p
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473qt-msonormal1"> <br>
</p>
<p
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473qt-msonormal1"> <br>
</p>
<p
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473qt-msonormal1">Nick
Thompson<br>
</p>
<p
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473qt-msonormal1"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><br>
</p>
<p
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473qt-msonormal1"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><br>
</p>
<p
class="qt-gmail-m_483865265995499473qt-msonormal1"> <br>
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