<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">Glen quoted BC Smith:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><i>"What does all this mean in the case of AIs and computer systems generally? Perhaps at least this: that it is hard to see how synthetic systems could be trained in the ways of judgment except by gradually, incrementally, and systematically enmeshed in normative practices that engage with the world and that involve thick engagement with teachers ('elders'), who can steadily develop and inculcate not just 'moral sensibility' but also intellectual appreciation of intentional commitment to the world."</i><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"> I read from (or into) this statement a position I have held via AI since I did my masters thesis in CS (AI) — computers cannot be intelligent in any general sense until and unless they participate in human culture. We automatically and non-consciously "enculturate" (normative practices that engage the world and involve thick engagement) our children.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">This is NOT education. Education is nothing more than a pale shadow of enculturation. Not more than 10% of the 'knowledge' in your head (knowledge about what to do and why and when and variations according to circumstance and context ....) was learned via any kind of formal education or training and yet it is absolutely essential and is the foundation for comprehending and utilizing the 10% you did learn formally.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Until we can enculturate our computers, we will never achieve general AI (or even any complete specialized AI.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, at 8:28 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> UK judge orders rightwing extremist to read classic literature or face <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> prison<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/01/judge-orders-rightwing-extremist-to-read-classic-literature-or-face-prison">https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/01/judge-orders-rightwing-extremist-to-read-classic-literature-or-face-prison</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> I know several liberals who agree with the righties that vaccine and <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> mask mandates are bad, though not for the same reasons. Righties yap <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> about fascism and limits to their "freedom". But the liberals talk <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> about how mandates just push the righties further into their foxholes, <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> preventing collegial conversation.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> So the story above is an interesting situation in similar style. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Renee', to this day, hates Shakespeare because she was forced to <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> memorize Romeo and Juliet as a kid. Of course, she doesn't hate <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Shakespeare, because she hasn't read much Shakespeare. She just <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> *thinks* she hates it because of this "mandate" she suffered under. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> This court mandated "literature therapy" being imposed on this kid <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> could work, if he can read it sympathetically. But if he can't, if he <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> simply reads it "syntactically", what will he learn?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> BC Smith, in his book "The Promise of AI", channels Steels & Brooks [ψ] <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> in writing:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> "What does all this mean in the case of AIs and computer systems <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> generally? Perhaps at least this: that it is hard to see how synthetic <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> systems could be trained in the ways of judgment except by gradually, <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> incrementally, and systematically enmeshed in normative practices that <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> engage with the world and that involve thick engagement with teachers <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> ('elders'), who can steadily develop and inculcate not just 'moral <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> sensibility' but also intellectual appreciation of intentional <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> commitment to the world."<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> If we think of this kid, Ben John, as an AI, what will he learn by <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> mandating he read Dickens? Similarly, what are the mandate protesters <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> learning from our mandates? Stupidity should be painful. And the <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> court's reaction to this kid's stupidity, the pain of reading Pride and <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Prejudice, should teach that kid something. But which is the more <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> dangerous stupidity? Which stupidity runs the risk of a more <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> catastrophic outcome? Avoiding the vaccine? Or mandating vaccination?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> [ψ] <a href="https://doi.org/10.4324/9781351001885">https://doi.org/10.4324/9781351001885</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> -- <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> ☤>$ uǝlƃ<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div></body></html>