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p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">Richard Gabriel has created software that can generate poetry in the style of any poet. It also generates poetry that passes the Turing test in that experts are unable to distinguish between machine generated poetry and human generated poetry. He demoed this at an annual meeting of poets at Warren Wilson College (where Richard got his MFA).<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">I am certain he could use his program to create FRIAM posts that could emulate any of us.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">He also, for IBM on a DoD contract, created a NL program that monitored social media posts, detected those deemed inimical to government interests (e.g setting up a flash mob to protest the visit of a political personage), and generate counter postings (e.g., moving the mob to a pig farm instead of the county court house because "inside sources" confirm the personage changed her itinerary).<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Of course social media postings create a pretty low bar for an AI to be convincing.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div>On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, at 10:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style="overflow-wrap:break-word;"><div class="qt-WordSection1"><p class="qt-MsoNormal">If we collected years of FRIAM archives and train it with a recycle GAN, I think it would probably be possible to generate plausible sentences of each other. To the extent we pay attention to what we say at all; so it might not be the
hard to fake really. I think we could get the basic intent of all the regulars, if not the details of their writing (which the GAN would get). I’ve often wished for a ML avatar that could stand in for me on Zoom meetings, so I could go play with my dog
or go running or whatever.<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><div style="border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-color:rgb(225, 225, 225);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;"><p class="qt-MsoNormal"></p><div><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>thompnickson2@gmail.com<br></div><div> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 1, 2021 9:21 AM<br></div><div> <b>To:</b> 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam@redfish.com><br></div><div> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning<br></div><p></p></div></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Would I pass the turing test if I could, by my emails, convince you that I was Dave?<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Or is that just the dave Test. Would I pass the Turing test if I could convince you that I was Turing?<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men!<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">n<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Nick Thompson<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"><span style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193);">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"><span style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193);">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><br></p></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><div style="border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-color:rgb(225, 225, 225);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;"><p class="qt-MsoNormal"></p><div><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Marcus Daniels<br></div><div> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 1, 2021 11:26 AM<br></div><div> <b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><br></div><div> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning<br></div><p></p></div></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">I’m already convinced Dave is bot. I know I am.<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2021/08/dead-internet-theory-wrong-but-feels-true/619937/">https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2021/08/dead-internet-theory-wrong-but-feels-true/619937/</a><br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><div style="border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-color:rgb(225, 225, 225);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;"><p class="qt-MsoNormal"></p><div><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Marcus Daniels<br></div><div> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:23 AM<br></div><div> <b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><br></div><div> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning<br></div><p></p></div></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Culture is online now, didn’t you hear?<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><div style="border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-color:rgb(225, 225, 225);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;"><p class="qt-MsoNormal"></p><div><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<br></div><div> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:12 AM<br></div><div> <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br></div><div> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning<br></div><p></p></div></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">Glen quoted BC Smith:</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><i><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">"What does all this mean in the case of AIs and computer systems generally? Perhaps at least this: that it is hard to see how synthetic systems could be trained in the ways of judgment except
by gradually, incrementally, and systematically enmeshed in normative practices that engage with the world and that involve thick engagement with teachers ('elders'), who can steadily develop and inculcate not just 'moral sensibility' but also intellectual
appreciation of intentional commitment to the world."</span></span></i><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> I read from (or into) this statement a position I have held via AI since I did my masters thesis in CS (AI) — computers cannot be intelligent in any general sense until and unless they participate
in human culture. We automatically and non-consciously "enculturate" (normative practices that engage the world and involve thick engagement) our children.</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">This is NOT education. Education is nothing more than a pale shadow of enculturation. Not more than 10% of the 'knowledge' in your head (knowledge about what to do and why and when and variations
according to circumstance and context ....) was learned via any kind of formal education or training and yet it is absolutely essential and is the foundation for comprehending and utilizing the 10% you did learn formally.</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">Until we can enculturate our computers, we will never achieve general AI (or even any complete specialized AI.</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">davew</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, at 8:28 AM, uǝlƃ </span></span><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol", sans-serif;">☤</span></span><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>$ wrote:</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> UK judge orders rightwing extremist to read classic literature or face </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> prison</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/01/judge-orders-rightwing-extremist-to-read-classic-literature-or-face-prison">https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/01/judge-orders-rightwing-extremist-to-read-classic-literature-or-face-prison</a></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> I know several liberals who agree with the righties that vaccine and </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> mask mandates are bad, though not for the same reasons. Righties yap </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> about fascism and limits to their "freedom". But the liberals talk </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> about how mandates just push the righties further into their foxholes, </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> preventing collegial conversation.</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> So the story above is an interesting situation in similar style. </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> Renee', to this day, hates Shakespeare because she was forced to </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> memorize Romeo and Juliet as a kid. Of course, she doesn't hate </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> Shakespeare, because she hasn't read much Shakespeare. She just </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> *thinks* she hates it because of this "mandate" she suffered under. </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> This court mandated "literature therapy" being imposed on this kid </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> could work, if he can read it sympathetically. But if he can't, if he </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> simply reads it "syntactically", what will he learn?</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> BC Smith, in his book "The Promise of AI", channels Steels & Brooks [ψ] </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> in writing:</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> "What does all this mean in the case of AIs and computer systems </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> generally? Perhaps at least this: that it is hard to see how synthetic </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> systems could be trained in the ways of judgment except by gradually, </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> incrementally, and systematically enmeshed in normative practices that </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> engage with the world and that involve thick engagement with teachers </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> ('elders'), who can steadily develop and inculcate not just 'moral </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> sensibility' but also intellectual appreciation of intentional </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> commitment to the world."</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> If we think of this kid, Ben John, as an AI, what will he learn by </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> mandating he read Dickens? Similarly, what are the mandate protesters </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> learning from our mandates? Stupidity should be painful. And the </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> court's reaction to this kid's stupidity, the pain of reading Pride and </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> Prejudice, should teach that kid something. But which is the more </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> dangerous stupidity? Which stupidity runs the risk of a more </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> catastrophic outcome? Avoiding the vaccine? Or mandating vaccination?</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> [ψ] <a href="https://doi.org/10.4324/9781351001885">https://doi.org/10.4324/9781351001885</a></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> -- </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span></span><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol", sans-serif;">☤</span></span><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">>$ uǝlƃ</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div></div><div>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br></div><div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br></div><div>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div><br></div></blockquote><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div></body></html>