<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Of course. I am not arguing against analysis, to do what it can do and should be asked to do.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div>For some things, the empirical scope you have is enough, and all that is left to do is argue. For other things, you can argue forever and not get to some conclusions, because the empirical input you have is not enough. One hopes to have the decency to be alert to the difference, and to try to figure out what situation one is in. </div><div><br class=""></div><div>That was all.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Eric</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 2, 2021, at 1:18 PM, Frank Wimberly <<a href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com" class="">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="auto" class="">Yes, but didn't developments in differentiable manifolds and related mathematics make modeling those empirical discoveries possible?<br class=""><br class=""><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" class="">---<br class="">Frank C. Wimberly<br class="">140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br class="">Santa Fe, NM 87505<br class=""><br class="">505 670-9918<br class="">Santa Fe, NM</div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 9:31 PM David Eric Smith <<a href="mailto:desmith@santafe.edu" class="">desmith@santafe.edu</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class="">Yes, probably among the cleanest of syntaxes.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I like it. To see it used more and better would be nice.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Logic makes the connections that can be made by it. (To say it better, which I think will relieve Glen of having to do it just to clear the irritation, _any given logic_ makes the connections that can be made within that logic.)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Logic did not reveal to us that spacetime is Lorentzian and not Cartesian/Newtonian. That was new empirical input.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">E</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 2, 2021, at 12:10 PM, <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class=""><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none" class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">In the same vein, as Frank, I suppose: Isn’t logic a form of syntax? <span class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">N<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Nick Thompson<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class=""><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)" class="">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,B2UyeKdY2KA_d35EP_oVU45z4GzXhyPzOMshp94Jwpy_-svR3fGVDtdUyq7qXVnlDeFKLqN19D70CgqM1rvy2vttRXazT0ogbCaDBo2UMdwZ__kl_aLkf4W24gY,&typo=1" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class=""><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)" class="">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div><div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in" class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class=""> </span>Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span class=""> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class=""> </span></b>Frank Wimberly<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class=""> </span>Wednesday, September 1, 2021 9:56 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class=""> </span>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">friam@redfish.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class=""> </span>Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class="">>but largely having the error that analytical philosophers seem to me to make, of believing one can argue from syntax to truth.</span><br class=""><br class="">Sometimes pure math reveals physics truth even when it wasn't the mathematician's purpose.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">---<br class="">Frank C. Wimberly<br class="">140 Calle Ojo Feliz,<span class=""> </span><br class="">Santa Fe, NM 87505<br class=""><br class="">505 670-9918<br class="">Santa Fe, NM<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div></div></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 6:55 PM David Eric Smith <<a href="mailto:desmith@santafe.edu" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">desmith@santafe.edu</a>> wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">If done carefully, this could be a good conversation to have.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">The trick will be to clear the underbrush of obvious stuff and not go endlessly in circles on that, in the hope of getting to something non-obvious.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">There is various obvious stuff about solitons (including some storms), roles of boundaries, and the use of statistical definitions of individuality instead of naive matter-bounding definitions. I have some extended sections on that kind of thing, to clear underbrush that is a needless mess in biology, in the book with Harold. Like many other things, I put it there as the one place I knew it would be safe from ever being seen by anybody. So far that has worked well. Other authors, who have been engaged in endless bickering for saying similar things in journal articles, have had to shoulder all that traffic while I have been left in peace to try to get on to something new.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">But let me reiterate to try to keep Nick at bay: I am a polysemist. The fact that a word gets used for several things does not lead me to think that they are the same or that it is merely a metaphor with one being primary and the others derivative. I am not saying anybody else has to hold that view, only giving notice that I do.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Case in point (as setup): The back-and-forth on where the term “to have” came from now has me interested in that. The exchange with EricC pushed me off a foolish position I had been holding, and in that way cleared underbrush, but didn’t yet get to anything original (at least not contributed by me).<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Other inputs: <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">— I am unlikely to believe any path in this conversation that believes itself to be either top-down or bottom-up. I think Glen’s oft-advocated middle-out is the only way to hope to have an insightful line of questioning.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">— Not having anything better to refer to, I like Gian-Carlo Rota’s notion (yes, Husser’s, or Heidegger’s, but the only version I have read directly is from Rota’s exposition) of “the unthematized” from phenomenology. Wherever these terms and their scopes come from, it seems to be there. Again I reiterate, for lack of having something better.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">— I know, from listening to them (but not committing to following them for 50 years, which I know is the minimal price of admission) that the Buddhists believe they have the Whole Story on this, and that it is much better than Rota’s “unthematized”. But I have no way to know if that is the case, or if they just feel better believing it is.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">— This is why I like very widely cross-linguistic evidence bases, and I tend to dislike the thesaurus-type analytical reasoning of senses and subsenses of meanings, which strikes me as useful within small bounds, but largely having the error that analytical philosophers seem to me to make, of believing one can argue from syntax to truth. If one can get parallel emergences of polysemies from many distantly-related branches (preferably whole-world, if one had the databases), that seems more likely to be informative on the experience of being human and the character of living.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">— It does seem a bit suspicious to me that Buddhism is a canon. Any other commentary on living seems to change as the conditions of living change. So I have little resonance with bronze-age stories that murder is less of an offense against The Lord than eating shellfish, and I resonate much more easily with Irish folk tales for children than I do with many of their African counterparts. I also find what counts as argument by Plato interesting but completely mystifying. Of course the Buddhists would answer that their great eternity of reality was never perturbed by the ripples on a pond the life course of this planet, so why shouldn’t some Indians and Tibetans have come to discover the whole thing and final word in a few thousand years at a particular era in human history. To me that position is tautological, and asserted by many religions, so I don’t see how to say anything useful to engage with it. Happily, they have no reason to care what I think, about that or anything else, so they can go on living in peace and doing what they want.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">To end, because I need to go to a meeting: I don’t think the use of “individual” in psychology is super-close to the notion of being individuated as a cell, organism, soliton, hurricane, etc. There can be some simple stuff to look for as overlaps, but I feel like the low-hanging fruit in that is all underbrush, which any college undergrad does staying up too late in gab sessions because doing your classwork is too tedious. It would be good to somehow see that we can recognize what much of that is, agree that the obvious things aren’t too controversial or very informative, and try to get past them. I know with certainty I will be proved wrong in believing that is possible. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">But, still the topic is a good one,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Eric<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">On Sep 2, 2021, at 9:19 AM, Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class="">A deep dive into the theory of reincarnation, Vedic version, reveals that the individual IS " simply a node in a system of interacting forces." The material aspect of that node, the incarnation, acts as a kind of inertial persistence - the forces repeat, moment to moment' the highly similar body with accompanying mental illusions of self. When the material body decomposes, the forces that gave rise to it do not and, with some degree of probability, give rise to a variant of the same entity at some point in the future. That second 'individual' is, to some statistical degree, the same individual previously incarnated but definitely not a clone — hence re-incarnation.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class="">But ultimately, all are nodes in systems of interacting forces.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class="">davew<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, at 4:09 PM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div></div><blockquote id="m_3097267994174451681m_3487052615589990160qt" style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px" type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">EricS asked:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div style="margin-left:0.5in" class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><b class=""><i class=""><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" class="">What am I but an individual?<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></i></b></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Could you simply be a unique node in a system of interacting forces? <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">I have long wanted to write an essay as a psychologist to a meteorology journal entitled “Should we name storms?<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">The first part of the essay argues that we shouldn’t name them because storms, unlike humans, are not proper individuals. Ie the forces that move them are not the forces that define them.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">The second part argues that we should name them because humans are, in fact,, like storms, each one defined by the particular forces that act upon it. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Nick<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Nick Thompson<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,6K-BylMLdNxb8DSP6nGmKKFojRxz62aTnShv8kLA9iqONITOdc8zXEfRa8StAS6sZvQo7tW_JrNr3-_NekQxdY_cqVT0UFgMwmYcmaenj-o,&typo=1&ancr_add=1" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">-----Original Message-----<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 5:58 PM<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">friam@redfish.com</a>><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">Subject: Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">> On Sep 1, 2021, at 11:41 PM, Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class=""><span style="color:windowtext" class="">marcus@snoutfarm.com</span></a>> wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">> I was made to take piano lessons for five years. I did minimal practice, but still hated it and the idea of it. I can’t do it all now, and don’t wish I could. Don’t tell me what is important. I will prioritize what I want.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">I am imagining I see a through-line here, for several threads.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">We take individuality for granted; after all, what else can I be but an individual? (The Buddhists will get all energized that that view is what is sending the world to hell.)<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">But being an individual isn’t easy. One can’t do it passively. One has to constantly fight off the world’s encroachment to be an individual. Hence elbowing for space, just to elbow for space, is probably innate.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">There is a line, I think somewhere in Bible/Job/ that I have always liked and used, even though the book as a whole isn’t gripping to me, like something from an alien species, and could sort-of be about making almost-any point. It was:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">“Why dost thou kick against the pricks?”<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">I remember I was all in a prowl over getting an idiot-review of a paper, and in the mood that that puts me in, that I am eager to meet the reviewer with an A-10. I wandered into the SFI kitchen to encounter Walter Fontana, always for me a comforting presence that the world would continue to have at least one interesting person in it, no matter what else happened. I was unloading on him, because the only time I am funny is when I am really annoyed, and I don’t want all that to be lost, like Rutger Hauer says, “like tears, in rain” with nobody to enjoy it. About 2 minutes in, I had Walter laughing out loud, and the culmination of my relation to reviewers was:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Why dost thou kick against the pricks? Because they piss me off!<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">But back to the point: do we learn anything about the nature of individuality?<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Eric<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">> That said, a vaccine is passive and takes no attention.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> On Sep 1, 2021, at 7:29 AM, uǝlƃ <span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif" class="">☤</span>>$ <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class=""><span style="color:windowtext" class="">gepropella@gmail.com</span></a>> wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> UK judge orders rightwing extremist to read classic literature or<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> face prison<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardian.c" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class=""><span style="color:windowtext" class="">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardian.c</span></a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> om%2fpolitics%2f2021%2fsep%2f01%2fjudge-orders-rightwing-extremist-to<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> -read-classic-literature-or-face-prison&c=E,1,M9NK9YVSpDUE3ATp1xxsWZ6<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> 6fJfv7F41fZ3yhs00aXqlOlf6_8OBrRKThjnj4inZPPTHFPQ7WNCTHfJ5cMMP63OghVQR<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> 2wAsowx7Pdk58b0,&typo=1<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> I know several liberals who agree with the righties that vaccine and mask mandates are bad, though not for the same reasons. Righties yap about fascism and limits to their "freedom". But the liberals talk about how mandates just push the righties further into their foxholes, preventing collegial conversation.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> So the story above is an interesting situation in similar style. Renee', to this day, hates Shakespeare because she was forced to memorize Romeo and Juliet as a kid. Of course, she doesn't hate Shakespeare, because she hasn't read much Shakespeare. She just *thinks* she hates it because of this "mandate" she suffered under. This court mandated "literature therapy" being imposed on this kid could work, if he can read it sympathetically. But if he can't, if he simply reads it "syntactically", what will he learn?<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> BC Smith, in his book "The Promise of AI", channels Steels & Brooks [ψ] in writing:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> "What does all this mean in the case of AIs and computer systems generally? Perhaps at least this: that it is hard to see how synthetic systems could be trained in the ways of judgment except by gradually, incrementally, and systematically enmeshed in normative practices that engage with the world and that involve thick engagement with teachers ('elders'), who can steadily develop and inculcate not just 'moral sensibility' but also intellectual appreciation of intentional commitment to the world."<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> If we think of this kid, Ben John, as an AI, what will he learn by mandating he read Dickens? Similarly, what are the mandate protesters learning from our mandates? Stupidity should be painful. And the court's reaction to this kid's stupidity, the pain of reading Pride and Prejudice, should teach that kid something. But which is the more dangerous stupidity? Which stupidity runs the risk of a more catastrophic outcome? Avoiding the vaccine? Or mandating vaccination?<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> [ψ]<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fdoi.org%2f10.4324" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class=""><span style="color:windowtext" class="">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fdoi.org%2f10.4324</span></a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> %2f9781351001885&c=E,1,kUEPqU5HqAHoV8Du4pwpdvHxqK_cJ1fOdlepXjYSapoLr0<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> ahTnkT06xd9Ll5tgJAyZ0h6glDWPK6a_eBJPD9GwxJm6FJFc-LbP5e9rdDCai8Wg,,&ty<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> po=1<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> --<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> <span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif" class="">☤</span>>$ uǝlƃ<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">>> GMT-6 <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,s6yEabislhhMDVoxlhSf7syPf5TT5Q4D3F4QeULGR_SKUjPOSFlF6cEp1A5go47SjASIxX41meopZkT9ag-NhmJkWKlwWmQBuak503-Z8HHa2jOopTHis696&typo=1" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" 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style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none" class=""><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important" class="">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none" class=""><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important" class="">Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 </span><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,w2N1sa6LmJ1lC0wbBuM6mjpWPg7p1z3Wd88Ky2r4OgH7Wwp0x8yGWRUFuQjPfxZ40-jWMpKuyFI0NdDP17F86642p1h_ssYUKAdVo3z7CLVeFCWYsDQrSQ5u&typo=1" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br 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style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important" class="">FRIAM-COMIC<span class=""> </span></span><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,qSUAFnvUDDDOpMe0mBPZw8De9bDx_H9jYpX4JpG9U3SvbVW1lh1sZ0RJ9erH4k5LDeeMzQ_hv8VJkMSZnvkkoxL_uWqAY9_Egp5isA9XnAkoerEoOc0JbG76&typo=1" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,qSUAFnvUDDDOpMe0mBPZw8De9bDx_H9jYpX4JpG9U3SvbVW1lh1sZ0RJ9erH4k5LDeeMzQ_hv8VJkMSZnvkkoxL_uWqAY9_Egp5isA9XnAkoerEoOc0JbG76&typo=1</a><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none" class=""><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important" class="">archives:<span class=""> </span></span><a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br class="">
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br class="">
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,sH6DGJz4lkuwo7yvVoT89m3wV6_9WNk9bCdRRRKYdI8FeFsu4ws5doCi-9aVmk2IErbRZfbnJFYDuyzwHfFex2CG6Lg2WhckFjgvHWbGDb0vn64T&typo=1" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br class="">
un/subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,IySR2NBnqjgzElxMOUQnHNJqoqAYpbxVyZ0-TxS4V2u2zkwokOcLRYNQH71jSpZGXC6Rd-O6pMh4xobAsqWqGVKm9qRKJNXVYF0E6O_ftSZCFdhfWnH6r5Sp&typo=1" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br class="">
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,f0gMl1TsgCPwZNetskRT-rLGQ85uJLOBp2ou1VDDnDpLvzV7vp4_V9W9D7UeiPD8Z0RfPS2NGj9jOwHj3xnymFgepfeoYf2xT2fn_MdlC-GDHfEPRw,,&typo=1" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br class="">
archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br class="">
</blockquote></div>
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br class="">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br class="">Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" class="">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br class="">un/subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,MeGXxoJX6_982-UjLckrLMMcydnOx0Ll_Emun8e9ah8fAOTnT40LDg7IcJ_BMs4OHsmCA72ONBpFMjBFf4O17K31lcWDMTSzyWkcmEVo8PxG5qPgtw,,&typo=1" class="">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,MeGXxoJX6_982-UjLckrLMMcydnOx0Ll_Emun8e9ah8fAOTnT40LDg7IcJ_BMs4OHsmCA72ONBpFMjBFf4O17K31lcWDMTSzyWkcmEVo8PxG5qPgtw,,&typo=1</a><br class="">FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,CkKHZ0wak6XQCZ2_PEQ-Ule7fwHyzy7CltNNE2DdHI-BodxbzNAkeC5RWxMZEvufu9KN8NBznspb0SNoWhksh9StIYH_w0EpWUbnvEhogdJZA5SbhA4K&typo=1" class="">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,CkKHZ0wak6XQCZ2_PEQ-Ule7fwHyzy7CltNNE2DdHI-BodxbzNAkeC5RWxMZEvufu9KN8NBznspb0SNoWhksh9StIYH_w0EpWUbnvEhogdJZA5SbhA4K&typo=1</a><br class="">archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" class="">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>