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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/11/21 12:09 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:BYAPR11MB3830451FC99C3D16A02EF9F2C5D79@BYAPR11MB3830.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
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<p class="MsoNormal">For contrast, one might call teenagers
Adult-candidates. </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>... ad absurdum ...<br>
</p>
<ol>
<li>fetuses are child candidates</li>
<li>embryos are fetus candidates</li>
<li>gametes are embryo half-candidates</li>
<li>spermatocytes and spermatids are gamete-candidates</li>
<li>healthy cells are cancerous cell candidates</li>
<li>living humans are angel-candidates (in some mythologies)</li>
<li>many "adults" are *adult* candidates in our culture<br>
</li>
</ol>
<p>The abortion debate is *extremely* tired, yet still somehow
vital, personal, critical at all scales of human experience. <br>
</p>
<p><anecdotes> Roe v. Wade was decided about the time I was
becoming sexually active. My older daughter was conceived out of
wedlock and could easily (by some measure of easy) have become an
abortion statistic, or if her maternal grandmother had had her
way, an adoption statistic, instead she became a high functioning
scientist working hard on virus research (Flavii not Corona) which
has a big impact on global health with a happy, healthy child of
her own (my parents promoted ZPG or Ro=1, I practiced Ro=1, my
daughters chose an Ro of .5). I would not have encouraged *any*
of these pregnancies to be terminated early/deliberately yet I
*would* have deferred such choices *to* the mother in each and
every case. <br>
</p>
<p>I've a good friend who likes to point out that *he* was conceived
(brought to term, adopted) *just before* Roe v. Wade and would
likely NOT have been allowed to come to term if he'd been
conceived post RvW, yet I'm pretty sure he is *still*
pro-choice. <br>
</p>
<p>Mary's (R1.5) twin grandchildren (R1) just turned 6. Their
gestation was problematic toward the end and in spite of heroic
measures to avoid premature birth, they were still 4 weeks
premature and spent many weeks in an incubator with significant
non-mother support to become viable. The larger of the two at
birth *might* have survived without modern technology, though both
of them received various treatments beyond simple
temperature/nourishment normalization. <br>
</p>
<p></anecdotes></p>
<p>I find that most discussions around abortion are fraught with
multiple conflations, but then I suppose most issues with strong
political/sociological/ideological implications often do. I have
remained persuaded from the first time I significantly considered
the implications of abortion that the woman who is pregnant has
primary and final decision authority about such matters. Anything
else represents a much more slippery slope than the (also) obvious
issues of *her* making such decisions for her unborn
child/fetus/embryo.<br>
</p>
<p>That does not mean that I don't believe there are other important
stakeholders who *do* have a right to an opinion, ranging from the
"sperm donor" to the nuclear family (parents, siblings, extant
children) to the mother's community of continuation (origin if she
does not feel the need to leave it over such issues), her medical
providers, her spiritual advisors, etc. Right to opinion, not
right to decide. My right to an opinion for anyone else's
decisions (or my right for it to be heard?) approaches nil as my
social distance rises.<br>
</p>
<p>I am thankful that such decisions/issues/challenges have never
been more than passing, thin possibilities for me to consider
personally. I am highly sympathetic with those who have not been
so lucky (including biological fathers, grandparents, close
confidantes, etc. who were not consulted or considered). <br>
</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:BYAPR11MB3830451FC99C3D16A02EF9F2C5D79@BYAPR11MB3830.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>
</o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
</b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 11, 2021 11:08 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group' <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Wimberly's Conjecture<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Ok. Since you demand that I have an
opinion, let’s call them all Child-candidates.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Marcus Daniels<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 11, 2021 12:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Wimberly's Conjecture<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Technology to the rescue!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15112"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15112</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Frank Wimberly<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 11, 2021 9:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Wimberly's Conjecture<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">So Nick's
point is you don't call an unborn child a "baby". Or a
"child".<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 9:36 AM Marcus
Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
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<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yes.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On
Sep 11, 2021, at 8:22 AM, Frank Wimberly <<a
href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">we
can stop arguing about this for ever. How
‘bout that?</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Agreed! But what will we
talk about? :-) <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">One question which I am
asking sincerely. Can amniocentesis detect
Down syndrome?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Come back safely, Nick.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Frank<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 9:13
AM <<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
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<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">>
Wimberly's Conjecture: There is no
correct, reductionist explanation of
consciousness.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Well,
depends on what you mean by reduction. If
you limit reduction to accounts in terms
of events at lower levels or organization,
then I absolutely agree, and we can stop
arguing about this for ever. How ‘bout
that?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Nick
Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b>
Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Frank Wimberly<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 10, 2021
4:18 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Segoe UI
Emoji",sans-serif">😁</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 1:22 PM Marcus
Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I
should have known to hide the drugs
from the addicts.
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$<br>
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 12:16
PM<br>
To: <a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur<br>
<br>
It's your fault for focusing on
reading ability instead of some less
subjective trait. Had you focused on,
say, tool use <<a
href="https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-magazine/our-intelligent-ancestor-neanderthal"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-magazine/our-intelligent-ancestor-neanderthal</a>>
or somesuch, then we may not have gone
there. ... Aaaaa, who am I kidding? We
always go there.
<br>
<br>
On 9/10/21 12:06 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
> How did we get started on
consciousness again? The thread
started with some snark about the
power of GWAS associations..<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> *From:* Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
*On Behalf Of *Frank
<br>
> Wimberly<br>
> *Sent:* Friday, September 10,
2021 11:56 AM<br>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <br>
> <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Wimberly's Conjecture: There is
no correct, reductionist explanation
of consciousness.<br>
> <br>
> ---<br>
> Frank C. Wimberly<br>
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,<br>
> Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
> <br>
> 505 670-9918<br>
> Santa Fe, NM<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 11:44 AM
uǝlƃ <span
style="font-family:"Segoe UI
Symbol",sans-serif">
☤</span>>$ <<a
href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">gepropella@gmail.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">gepropella@gmail.com</a>>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> It's no more profound than
any other multi-order composition.
It's part of the work we have to do
for mechanistic modeling of higher
order constructs. What galls me is
that we can talk about it so much
without discussing the mechanisms of
construction.<br>
> <br>
> The details of composing from
genes, through physiological
structures, through interoception, to
very high order attributes like
"reading ability" are interesting,
regardless of any profundity. But some
of us need to be reminded of how the
details build the narrative. Like
Magic Eye pictures, the Necker cube,
or the lady/vase thing, what might
seem banal without the larger frame
can seem profound when the discourse
is enlarged ... when it all snaps into
place.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On 9/10/21 10:25 AM, Marcus
Daniels wrote:<br>
> > Fine, the goal is some
composition of functions and it is all
interdependent. <br>
> ><br>
> > Sure. Of course. Why
is this so profound to y’all? <br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > *From:* Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>>
*On Behalf Of *<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>><br>
> > *Sent:* Friday,
September 10, 2021 10:20 AM<br>
> > *To:* 'The Friday
Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group' <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>>><br>
> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM]
gen'fur<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > Which takes us back to
thermostats, intentionality,
intensional inexistence, Sober’s
epiphomenator, spandrels, and Lorenz’s
law: The goal is never the function.
If you build a bird that measures
competing male robins in terms of
“brown stick with red fluff” you
eventually get an ethologist who gets
that bird to attack by providing only
brown sticks with red fluff. <br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > See. It’s all
connected.<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > Nick<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > Nick Thompson<br>
> ><br>
> > <a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a>>><br>
> ><br>
> > <a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a>
<<a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a>>
<<a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a>
<<a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a>>><br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > *From:* Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>>>
*On Behalf Of *Steve Smith<br>
> > *Sent:* Friday,
September 10, 2021 12:30 PM<br>
> > *To:* <a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>>><br>
> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM]
gen'fur<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > Sometimes all you need
is a good aphorism<br>
> ><br>
> > <a
href="https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law</a>
<<a
href="https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law</a>>
<<a
href="https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law</a>
<<a
href="https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law</a>>><br>
> ><br>
> > or maybe boost it up
with a cartoon<br>
> ><br>
> > <a
href="https://sketchplanations.com/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://sketchplanations.com/</a>
<<a
href="https://sketchplanations.com/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://sketchplanations.com/</a>>
<<a
href="https://sketchplanations.com/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://sketchplanations.com/</a>
<<a
href="https://sketchplanations.com/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://sketchplanations.com/</a>>><br>
> ><br>
> > I can't help but
wonder if there's an analog of
Goodhart's law lurking, here.<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > On September 9, 2021
2:31:39 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>>
wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Or they are
reprogramming their people to be
smarter!<br>
> ><br>
> > (Actually,
deCODE is owned by Amgen now.)<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > Selection is
already occurring, so it isn't as if
this is some sci-fi thing.<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > <a
href="https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/</a>
<<a
href="https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/</a>>
<<a
href="https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/</a>
<<a
href="https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/</a>>><br>
> ><br>
> > -----Original
Message-----<br>
> ><br>
> > From: Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>>
On Behalf Of David Eric Smith<br>
> ><br>
> > Sent: Thursday,
September 9, 2021 2:12 PM<br>
> ><br>
> > To: The Friday
Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>>><br>
> ><br>
> > Subject: Re:
[FRIAM] gen'fur<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > Aha! This is
why Iceland has the highest per-capita
fraction of published authors in the
world. I had assumed it was the
weather….<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > On Sep 10,
2021, at 2:17 AM, Marcus Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>>
wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > That can be
screened as well with a large
population-wide survey such has been
done in the UK or Iceland.<br>
> ><br>
> > Of course,
it is unlikely that complex behaviors
will be governed by isolated
mutations, so the task is to look for
highly predictive motifs (e.g. regular
expressions). <br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> >
-----Original Message-----<br>
> ><br>
> > From: Friam
<<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>>
On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$<br>
> ><br>
> > Sent:
Thursday, September 9, 2021 10:12 AM<br>
> ><br>
> > To: <a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>>><br>
> ><br>
> > Subject: Re:
[FRIAM] gen'fur<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > Ha! Now
you're trolling. The answer is:
"because the sites that generate
reading ability (or whatever) *also*
generate other 'abilities'", with
"abilities" in scare quotes because
many abilities are considered bad ...
like the ability of a pimply faced
white dude to shoot up a church or
blow up a federal building.<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > In addition
to polyphenism, there's robustness. If
more than 1 site generates the same
functional ability (reading), then do
we write them all? ... just one of
them? ... a probabilistically
predictive handful of them?<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > On 9/9/21
10:00 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > So find
the sites that correspond to reading
ability, or whatever, and WRITE them. <br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> >
-----Original Message-----<br>
> ><br>
> > From:
Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>>
On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$<br>
> ><br>
> > Sent:
Thursday, September 9, 2021 9:51 AM<br>
> ><br>
> > To: <a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>>><br>
> ><br>
> > Subject:
Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > I was
alerted to this article this morning:<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > Can
Progressives Be Convinced That
Genetics Matters?<br>
> ><br>
> > <a
href="https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con</a>
<<a
href="https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con</a>>
<<a
href="https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con</a>
<<a
href="https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con</a>>><br>
> ><br>
> > v<br>
> ><br>
> >
inced-that-genetics-matters<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > It
should delight those amongst us who
rant about the "woke". 8^D But it
dovetails nicely with the fraught
concept of equality in the other
thread.<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> >
Coincidentally, also on 9/6, the
BIAPT announced their early career
prize winner Emily McTernan:<br>
> ><br>
> > <a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo</a>
<<a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo</a>>
<<a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo</a>
<<a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo</a>>><br>
> ><br>
> > <a
href="http://rpoliticalthought.ac.uk"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rpoliticalthought.ac.uk</a>
<<a
href="http://rpoliticalthought.ac.uk"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://rpoliticalthought.ac.uk</a>>%2fbiapt-2021-early-care&c=E,1,Je9MVNdO8lpJQOd<br>
> ><br>
> >
6fZwUNe-4z5yuFq0upxNIzMBFjmLFh_h5a63ueVVpd8lkEdWeUx5Xx1RaoPg3T5Ph8YlG<br>
> ><br>
> >
0558qqHLZD8-DKeBPEC3YYM,&typo=1<br>
> ><br>
> >
er-prize-winner-dr-emily-mcternan/<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > "In her
forthcoming monograph, Dr McTernan
develops her work on social equality
further, to advance a pioneering
conceptual account – and robust
normative defence – of the phenomenon
of ‘taking offence’. Therein, McTernan
contends, we should understand taking
offence, under appropriate conditions,
as a civic virtue rather than a vice,
as an emotion that embodies the
resistance of social inequalities
within a community."<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > On
9/8/21 8:06 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > From
about a cancer rate of 10% (without
mutation) to 50% (with) but it depends
on the BRCA variant.<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> > <a
href="https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca</a>
<<a
href="https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca</a>>
<<a
href="https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca</a>
<<a
href="https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca</a>>><br>
> ><br>
> > n<br>
> ><br>
> > c<br>
> ><br>
> >
er.htm<br>
> ><br>
> > <<a
href="https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_c"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_c</a>
<<a
href="https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_c"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_c</a>>
<<a
href="https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm</a>
<<a
href="https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm</a>>><br>
> ><br>
> > a
<<a
href="https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm</a>
<<a
href="https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm</a>>><br>
> ><br>
> > n
<<a
href="https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm</a>
<<a
href="https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm</a>>><br>
> ><br>
> >
cer.htm> <<a
href="https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm</a>
<<a
href="https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm</a>>><br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
> >
On Sep 8, 2021, at 4:07 PM, Frank
Wimberly <<a
href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>>>
wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> >
<br>
> ><br>
> >
<br>
> ><br>
> >
Is the Braca gene that little
correlated with breast cancer?<br>
> ><br>
> >
<br>
> ><br>
> >
---<br>
> ><br>
> >
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
> ><br>
> >
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,<br>
> ><br>
> >
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
> ><br>
> >
<br>
> ><br>
> >
505 670-9918<br>
> ><br>
> >
Santa Fe, NM<br>
> ><br>
> >
<br>
> ><br>
> >
On Wed, Sep 8, 2021, 4:57 PM Marcus
Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>>>
wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> >
<br>
> ><br>
> >
Yeah, it is hard to get excited
about “unusual” variance. Modern<br>
> ><br>
> >
classification algorithms like
gradient boosting make it possible<br>
> ><br>
> >
to predict phenotypes, and to me that
is a lot more interesting<br>
> ><br>
> >
(and still possible to
deconstruct).____<br>
> ><br>
> >
<br>
> ><br>
> >
__ __<br>
> ><br>
> >
<br>
> ><br>
> >
*From:* Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>>>
*On Behalf Of *Eric Charles<br>
> ><br>
> >
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 8,
2021 3:53 PM<br>
> ><br>
> >
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>>>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>>>><br>
> ><br>
> >
*Subject:* [FRIAM] gen'fur____<br>
> ><br>
> >
<br>
> ><br>
> >
__ __<br>
> ><br>
> >
<br>
> ><br>
> >
Gen'fur this, gen'fur that... and
also the realities of biological
complexity....<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
<span style="font-family:"Segoe
UI Symbol",sans-serif">☤</span>>$
uǝlƃ<br>
<br>
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