<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0in;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:"Consolas",serif;}
span.EmailStyle24
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Frank, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Mis sorted my email by mistake. What else. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>n<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"><span style='color:#0563C1'>ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"><span style='color:#0563C1'>https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Frank Wimberly<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, September 12, 2021 11:58 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] the end of the pandemic<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>I didn't notice the date. I thought it was newly posted. Why would it have appeared in my email? Maybe I did a search and saw Marcus's message by coincidence. At least my comment was brief.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br>140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>Santa Fe, NM 87505<br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sun, Sep 12, 2021, 9:50 PM Gary Schiltz <<a href="mailto:gary@naturesvisualarts.com">gary@naturesvisualarts.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal>Maybe I missed something, but what prompted you to dig up a 16 month old comment from Marcus to respond to?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 3:29 PM Frank Wimberly <<a href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com" target="_blank">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Pollyanna! (ironic)<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g" target="_blank">140 Calle Ojo Feliz, </a><br><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g" target="_blank">Santa Fe, NM 87505</a><br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sat, May 16, 2020, 10:32 AM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Here\u2019s what I expect will probably happen. The PANDEMIC will be declared over, like Mission Accomplished with W. There will be a slower burn until fall, and then it will accelerate again. But people will be acclimate to the death rate, like they acclimate to gun violence. Unemployment and homelessness will soar and be persistent. Suicides will go up, and be normalized. Meanwhile, people with the means will self-isolate and be the first to get access to antiviral treatments. Out in the blood and muck, herd immunity will begin to emerge in at risk populations. The U.S. will continue to have high prevalence compared to other countries. History will look back on this as a Chernobyl moment, where the prestige of the United States fell to Asia. And a second term of Trump will ensure it.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> on behalf of Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" target="_blank">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>><br><b>Reply-To: </b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Date: </b>Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 8:25 AM<br><b>To: </b>"<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM] the end of the pandemic</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Steve,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Yes the subject line is click-bait. In the body of the message I made a distinction between the disease pandemic and the perceived PANDEMIC. The latter will go away whether or not the disease does.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>The metrics for the latter would include increased traffic to websites like the Mathematica Individual COVID Risk calculator and less to WHO, CDC, and other overall statistical sites; a noticeable shift from personal interest stories about succuming to COVID to ones about succumbing to economic hardship; gaming floors in Las Vegas casinos opening with lots of assurance that gamblers are at no greater risk than when visiting a grocery store; stories about death rates moving from the front page to the second page or section; significant increase in lawsuits against restrictions with quick, probably out of court, capitulation by governor's; and the central theme of stories about the pandemic, what the science tells, us, whistleblowers, etc will be almost purely political in nature.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Going beyond mid-June, I would predict that you will see "wave crests" in terms of cases and deaths, but not "spikes." They will be big enough for the "experts" to claim they are right, but not big enough to trigger any socio-economic response and most people will regard any reporting of same with cynicism. Any attempt to reimpose lock-downs would likely result in furious resistance and widespread civil disobedience.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>davew</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Tue, May 12, 2020, at 7:13 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' id="m_-3575950442181640121m_-1887063541015946548m_6367297395342379613qt"><p>Dave -<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>The COVID-19 pandemic will end, at least in the US, by mid-June, 2020.<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Ignoring the "bait" that I (and others) took earlier, I'll try to respond to the singular prediction above:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p>What means "end"? What is a specific statistic that you believe to indicate that the pandemic has ended? <o:p></o:p></p><p>From Wikipedia:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122;background:white'>A <b>pandemic</b> (from </span><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek" target="_blank" title="Ancient Greek"><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0B0080;background:white'>Greek</span></a><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122;background:white'> \u03c0\u1fb6\u03bd, <i>pan</i>, "all" and \u03b4\u1fc6\u03bc\u03bf\u03c2, <i>demos</i>, "people") is an </span><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemic" target="_blank" title=Epidemic><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0B0080;background:white'>epidemic</span></a><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122;background:white'> of </span><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease" target="_blank" title=Disease><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0B0080;background:white'>disease</span></a><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122;background:white'> that has spread across a large region, for instance multiple </span><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continents" target="_blank" title=Continents><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0B0080;background:white'>continents</span></a><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122;background:white'> or worldwide, affecting a substantial number of people. A widespread </span><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endemic_(epidemiology)" target="_blank" title="Endemic (epidemiology)"><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0B0080;background:white'>endemic</span></a><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122;background:white'> disease with a stable number of infected people is not a pandemic. Widespread endemic diseases with a stable number of infected people such as recurrences of </span><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_influenza" target="_blank" title="Seasonal influenza"><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0B0080;background:white'>seasonal influenza</span></a><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122;background:white'> are generally excluded as they occur simultaneously in large regions of the globe rather than being spread worldwide.</span><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122;background:white'>The WHO published THIS description of phases of a pandemic:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK143061/" target="_blank">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK143061/</a><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p><i><span style='color:black;background:white'>In the </span></i><b><i><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black;background:white'>post-pandemic</span></i></b><i><span style='color:black;background:white'> period, influenza disease activity will have returned to levels normally seen for seasonal influenza. It is expected that the pandemic virus will behave as a seasonal influenza A virus. At this stage, it is important to maintain surveillance and update pandemic preparedness and response plans accordingly. An intensive phase of recovery and evaluation may be required.</span></i><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>Or maybe some other (measurable) definition?<o:p></o:p></p><p>- Steve <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>-- --- .-. .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> <o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></body></html>