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<p>NST -</p>
<p>In my (lame) pursuit of enlightenment I find that pleasure and
pain start to muddle together with all other less-judged
experiences... slipping into the flow of "what is"... and those
experiences become more and more ineffable or more apropos, less
effing effable?<br>
</p>
<p>- SAS<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:052c01d7ab39$eb94ebd0$c2bec370$@gmail.com">
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<p class="MsoNormal">Great. That is indeed the weakest point in
my argument. It is the central argument of Sober and Wilson’s
<a
href="https://www.amazon.com/Unto-Others-Evolution-Psychology-Unselfish/dp/0674930479/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=wilson+and+sober+unto+others&qid=1631822440&sr=8-1https://www.bing.com/search?q=amazon+com&form=IENTNB&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&msnews=1&refig=01d8e6a6f68f4e79c1b939b52a4e26a6&sp=1&ghc=1&filters=ufn%3A%22amazon+com%22+sid%3A%22ce00286a-e903-ff2c-7dac-b49bd707399c%22&qs=MB&pq=ama&sc=8-3&cvid=01d8e6a6f68f4e79c1b939b52a4e26a6"
moz-do-not-send="true">UNTO OTHERS</a>. I hate (and have
done so repeatedly in print) confusing tautologies with
statements of fact. So this is indeed my petard your are
threatening to hoist me on. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">First, let me stipulate that there are pain
motives, and that pain is not the cessation of pleasure, nor
pleasure the cessation of pain. I assume that that
stipulation will not change your question, right? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hearing me try to wiggle out of the
tautology problem will require a lot of patience of you. It
will lead us into the dreadful confusion of “the hard problem”
and “effing the ineffable”. Only for the strong of heart. I
predict that you will say, at some point, “Nick, you are
confusing what a feeling does with what a feeling is, and only
I can know what my feelings are.” And I will say, “No. No.
That is nonsense, Marcus, and even you know it. Anybody who
has ever been married or even owned a dog knows that others
can often gauge feelings better than the feeling-owner.” And
you will reply, “No, no, Nicholas, you idiot. Yours will be a
INFERENCE of my feelings; I know my own feelings directly,
without inference.” And I will say, “No. No, Marcus. A
thousand experiments in psychology will demonstrate that the
feeling owner is often wrong about his own feelings.” And
notice that I am at that point edging you up to the tautology
line because one way to define feelings that ends the argument
is to say that my feelings just are those experiences that I
and I alone can know uniquely. Frank and Bruce Simon and I
have been over this ground a gazillion times. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It’s possible we can avoid it, but I don’t
think so. To test the proposition, ask yourself: if we
stripped the notion of pleasure of all association with how a
pleasure feels uniquely and momentarily to you, would you
still raise the question you do. Would you still ask,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <span class="quotationChar">“Does all
conscious (even synthetic) life need to be driven by a
pleasure motive? This seems to be Nick’s claim. I expect
the way this argument plays out is that, e.g., altruism is
defined to “feel good”. It is tautological.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If that question disappears for you under
those circumstances, then I can simply admit that a pleasure
is just the behavioral transition that occurs upon the
achievement of set of circumstances, and escape the tautology
by defining a goal as the organization of behavior that
points to a set of circumstances. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So. Where are we an the socalled Hard
Problem. I know you have probably said, but, to be honest, I
don’t remember.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Marcus
Daniels<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 16, 2021 3:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Does all conscious (even synthetic) life
need to be driven by a pleasure motive? This seems to be
Nick’s claim. I expect the way this argument plays out is
that, e.g., altruism is defined to “feel good”. It is
tautological.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On Sep 16,
2021, at 12:22 PM, <a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="quotation">some of us might be writing only to
hear ourselves gumflap?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Pfffft! All of us are and all of us
aren’t.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">For my own case, I am writing here to
develop my thinking, so that it may someday coalesce into
something that I publish, with, or without, others. That
that enterprise is not entirely nugatory is evident in my
writing which is both stable and evolving and usually does
involve others. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I stipulate that you all may be being
forced to serve in a cause you may not have signed up
for. I guess this is the point where a glen would say,
“Live with it!”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">n<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 16, 2021 3:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be
true?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 9/16/21 10:35 AM, <a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Just so’s you know, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I took it from this email thread,
where it pretty much stood alone. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">And remember. Y ou (we) aren’t just
writing to one another. You (we) are writing to 300
other people.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p>And according to Glen a few threads in the weft-weave
back, some of us might be writing only to hear ourselves
gumflap? I think that (his characterization or my
characterization of his characterization or both) might be
hyperbolic.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
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