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    <p>EricS -<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:FF119EAA-664E-4788-B25C-F6C527C6636D@santafe.edu">
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">2. Before commenting on resolutions, maybe a comment
        more to clarify the experience of the problem.  The use of some
        of these words in the various posts leads to a reading
        experience for me that is like garden path sentences.  So it is
        not so simple as “defining” a term.  It is that the semantic
        work the usage of a certain term does in someone’s mind
        percolates down to lots of levels in the forming and the reading
        of text.  <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    I appreciate what I presume might be a Borges reference and my own
    apprehension (expressed quite lamely in my last post/response) of
    these things as "fields of meaning" which may or may not be
    continuous/differentiable if even ultimately defined over metric
    spaces.<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:FF119EAA-664E-4788-B25C-F6C527C6636D@santafe.edu">
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">3, Often, there are cadences in your use of the term
        function that feel familiar to me from evolutionists, whose use
        of it also is a garden-path sentence for me.  So for that I know
        you are at most partly idiosyncratic, or that the behaviorist
        conventions are only partly distinctive.  Some of this goes back
        a level in generality and community.  Since the evolutionists
        don’t use the word “goal” the way you do, the things in that
        that seem strange to me are more particular to this discourse.</div>
    </blockquote>
    <p>This description bumbles me over from Borges "Garden of Forking
      Paths" to "the Library of Babel".</p>
    <p>Of course, you may only be using "Garden Path" in the more
      vernacular sense of being "lead astray" or "wandering amongst
      constraints imposed by the garden designer but mostly occult to
      the wanderer".  Or something else entirely?<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:FF119EAA-664E-4788-B25C-F6C527C6636D@santafe.edu">
      <div class="">4a. I happen to feel like this is something I run
        into in the “beyond fitness” exercise.  So in being concrete I
        can allow others to tell me how I am misunderstanding everything
        they say.  I experience the evolutionists as thinking about
        things like sporophytes, gametophytes, spores, gametes, etc. —
        the various objects in the lifecycle of ferns — as epiphenomena
        of the fitnesses of units of selection.  As for Plato, the Unit
        of Selection, and its Fitness, are the true Forms, and all those
        objects and transitions are just shadows on the cave wall.  The
        “no epiphenomena” is for me the pushback that says: No, start
        with the things that are there and do stuff; whether it fits the
        frame you want to put on it (Glen’s pre-emptive registration)
        can come later, or not at all, as appropriate.  Of course for
        the narrow cases I treat it is easy, like Godel’s demonstration
        of the limitations of arithmetic was easy because explicit
        constructions can be made: that the Platonic Form of fitness and
        the unit of selection to which they wish to make everything else
        epiphenomenal can be shown to exclude quite concrete and
        specific things that are included if one starts with just what
        happens and constructs, to find that other registrations are
        consistent while the fitness and the unit of selection are not.
         I know this is not germane to the topic you were discussing,
        but I cannot help have it as part of the experience set that
        parses styles of speaking.</div>
    </blockquote>
    <p>To the extent I *think* (hope?) I parsed this paragraph
      correctly, it feels like it gets to the root of our (collectively
      mutual) confusion over epi/phenomena and exposes a complement of
      meta/object distinctions?</p>
    <p>The rest of your treatment of the larger weave of this discussion
      that follows is equally rich albeit sometimes ambiguous/arcane (to
      my unsophisticated ear/eye) but I wanted to thank you for your
      repeated attempts at "effing the effable" or perhaps "locuting the
      locutable"?</p>
    <p>Carry on!</p>
    <p> - SteveS<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:FF119EAA-664E-4788-B25C-F6C527C6636D@santafe.edu">
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">5. I assume the resolution is a sort of AA
        resolution: to admit the conversation has a problem.  Probably
        to expect, too, that the problem doesn’t really go away.  So one
        just deals with it one day at a time. </div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">I have to comment that in one other post, you gave
        three assertions that made me sure (and also probably wrong) why
        DaveW says you are a mystic, whether you will admit it or not.
         They are not entirely out of context of the above.  You said:</div>
      <div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color:
          rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=""><br class="">
        </span></div>
      <div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color:
          rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="">I don't know what world you are
          talking about if you [think you] are talking about a world
          beyond experience. </span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0,
          0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="">
        <span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"
          class="">I don't know what existence you are talking about if
          you [think you] are talking about existence apart from
          experience.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color:
          rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="">
        <span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"
          class="">I don't know what fidelity you are talking about if
          you [think you] are talking about fidelity apart from
          experience.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color:
          rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="">
      </div>
      <div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color:
          rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=""><br class="">
        </span></div>
      <div class=""><font class="" color="#000000">I think that hits my
          neoplatonist triggers too.  It’s an interesting exercise for
          me to try to find a locution that captures the right concept.
           The visceral response, which I also have to religious people,
          and which makes the contemplatives angry when I tell them they
          are hitting the same triggers as the religious ones do, is to
          scream at them IT’S NOT ALL ABOUT YOU.  The religious ones
          don’t want to live in a world that isn’t all about them.  I
          think the mystics and the contemplatives want to say they are
          not that breed of cat.  I will take them at their word, but I
          can’t picture myself doing a good job of arguing on their
          behalf, which is usually the measure for whether I understand
          something.</font></div>
      <div class=""><font class="" color="#000000"><br class="">
        </font></div>
      <div class=""><font class="" color="#000000">But what then is the
          careful version?</font></div>
      <div class=""><font class="" color="#000000"><br class="">
        </font></div>
      <div class=""><font class="" color="#000000">Well, my discourse
          can never happen except within the larger field of my
          experience, and I would do well to always keep that in mind.
           That seems good.  But what is there of the language I
          produce, and that we produce together?  It is generated within
          behavior, it is transacted in experience, indeed.  But what
          forms is it desirable for me to endow it with, or in which to
          try to use it and develop it?  Suppose it is capable of having
          forms that refer to an existence in ways such that
          that referral doesn’t care how my experience is or isn’t
          involved.  A biosphere could have sprung up on this planet,
          with all these insects and plants and fish and so forth, and
          with never people to comment about them.  They would be no
          less themselves.  A language capable of expressing (or
          aspiring to express) that frame is one I would like to use.
           To conceive of a language that has structures in common with
          a world beyond experience, even though my talking in it is an
          event within behavior or experience, does not seem to me
          obviously logically incoherent.  Any more than living in a
          world that would have been much the same if I hadn’t been
          living in it seems incompatible with the inherent coherence —
          of a thing’s being whatever-all that thing is — of existing.</font></div>
      <div class=""><font class="" color="#000000"><br class="">
        </font></div>
      <div class=""><font class="" color="#000000">The question
          of “how would I know whether the language had ever achieved
          such an alignment, since my knowing takes place within
          experience” is of course fine to pursue.  But I think I can
          express a preference for trying for a language with that
          overall form, even if I don’t know how to answer the question
          about validation.  There is the issue of how I participate in
          a language, given whatever it is and whatever I am.  I have a
          mode of participation in, or engagement with, or use or
          receipt of, a language that refers to a world beyond
          experience, that I imagine I would not have if it didn’t.</font></div>
      <div class=""><font class="" color="#000000"><br class="">
        </font></div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class=""><font class="" color="#000000">That didn’t buy you
          any of what you came for, I know.   Hopefully not time lost
          down a well, even so.</font></div>
      <div class=""><font class="" color="#000000"><br class="">
        </font></div>
      <div class=""><font class="" color="#000000">Eric</font></div>
      <div class=""><font class="" color="#000000"><br class="">
        </font></div>
      <div class=""><font class="" color="#000000"><br class="">
        </font></div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
        <div><br class="">
          <blockquote type="cite" class="">
            <div class="">On Sep 17, 2021, at 6:52 AM, <<a
                href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class=""
                moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
              <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class=""
                moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
              wrote:</div>
            <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
            <div class="">
              <div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;
                caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
                font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
                normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
                text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
                none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
                -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Hi, EricS<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">You faith in my
                  consistency is touching (};-)].<span
                    class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span
                    class="quotationChar" style="font-family:
                    "Times New Roman", serif; font-weight:
                    bold; font-style: italic;">I know that, in response
                    to this, Nick will reply with a sequence of
                    English-language words that I find even more
                    unparseable than the ones above</span>.  <o:p
                    class=""></o:p></div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Frankly, you shouldn’t
                  have any faith that my average psychology colleague
                  will rescue me.  90% of them, directly or indirectly,
                  make their living off The Hard Problem. <span
                    class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">EricC and JonZ might do
                  so, but they are  probably too busy. <span
                    class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Given that I find my
                  inability to communicate with you alarming and
                  distressing, and given that you find what I write so
                  exasperating, is there any way forward? <span
                    class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Please understand that
                  I am not fooling around, here. <span
                    class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Are there any baby
                  steps we could take?   If I can’t communicate with you
                  guys, small chance I will be able to communicate with
                  ordinary mortals.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p
                    class=""></o:p></div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Nick  <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
                <div class="">
                  <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                    Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Nick Thompson<o:p
                      class=""></o:p></div>
                  <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                    Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a
                      href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" class=""
                      moz-do-not-send="true">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><o:p
                      class=""></o:p></div>
                  <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                    Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,7DujyKj5BlPA-iLJk3HDHbbYf60pN4x1wLc2-4y8BhU7T98FngpaBqZeRQ7hpECyZN4GzK-mPCBf7x_afUfzbyUr1CYriZXSYMJPqZQk&typo=1"
                      class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><o:p
                      class=""></o:p></div>
                </div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
                <div class="">
                  <div style="border-style: solid none none;
                    border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225,
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                    <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt;
                      font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b
                        class="">From:</b><span
                        class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friam <<a
                        href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" class=""
                        moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span
                        class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b
                        class="">On Behalf Of<span
                          class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>David
                      Eric Smith<br class="">
                      <b class="">Sent:</b><span
                        class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday,
                      September 16, 2021 5:32 PM<br class="">
                      <b class="">To:</b><span
                        class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>The Friday
                      Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a
                        href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" class=""
                        moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br
                        class="">
                      <b class="">Subject:</b><span
                        class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
                      [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
                <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                  Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">This is where there is
                  a style of use of language that may be unique to Nick
                  among all humans, or may be a tribal custom among the
                  psychologists, but which the common man needs to be
                  aware exists, so that he knows that the way
                  Nick/psychologists use words will be directly opposed
                  to the way the common man has always used them.<o:p
                    class=""></o:p></div>
                <div class="">
                  <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                    Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
                </div>
                <div class="">
                  <div class="">
                    <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom:
                      5pt;" class="" type="cite">
                      <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt;
                        font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">If
                        that question disappears for you under those
                        circumstances, then I can simply admit that a
                        pleasure is just the behavioral transition that
                        occurs upon the achievement of set of
                        circumstances, and escape the tautology by
                        defining  a goal as the organization of behavior
                        that points to a set of circumstances. <span
                          style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica,
                          sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
                    </blockquote>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt;
                        font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p
                          class=""> </o:p></div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt;
                        font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">So,
                        in archery, the way the archer points the bow
                        (organization of behavior) is the “goal”, and
                        the event of an arrow’s hitting a bullseye is
                        somehow not a goal.  Nick didn’t happen to use
                        the word “function” in the clip above; I have no
                        idea what he would say a “function” is, but in
                        the earlier posts, it was as bizarrely glossed
                        to me as this glossing of goal, so I can’t even
                        come up with a guess for how to imitate it.  <o:p
                          class=""></o:p></div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt;
                        font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p
                          class=""> </o:p></div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt;
                        font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The
                        plugging in of an address for the supermarket to
                        the GPS while sitting in the car in the driveway
                        (organization of behavior) is the goal, not the
                        event of my arriving at the supermarket.<o:p
                          class=""></o:p></div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt;
                        font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p
                          class=""> </o:p></div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt;
                        font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">For
                        me as a mechanic, the bullseye as a position for
                        arrows is the goal (applied to an object), or
                        the event of the arrow’s arriving there is a
                        goal (applied to an outcome of a behavior) that
                        serves as a selection criterion among directions
                        in which a bow might be pointed.  My pointing
                        the bow one way versus another is to me a
                        function for attaining that goal.  The event of
                        arriving at a supermarket is the goal that
                        serves as a criterion for selection of which GPS
                        location I plug in; the act of plugging in that
                        address is then a function for attaining that
                        goal.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt;
                        font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p
                          class=""> </o:p></div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt;
                        font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I
                        know that, in response to this, Nick will reply
                        with a sequence of English-language words that I
                        find even more unparseable than the ones above.
                         <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt;
                        font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p
                          class=""> </o:p></div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt;
                        font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The
                        meditators do this too.  If I comment that, as a
                        mechanic, I am interested in what would get
                        people to be more restrained in the use of
                        excesses of power when they find themselves in
                        possession of such, to try to unwind the death
                        spiral that is leading to the dissolution of the
                        society, I know that the meditators will say
                        “Poor child, lost in samsara, he doesn’t realize
                        that all these things he refers to are just
                        illusion.”  If I say to them that this is what I
                        expect them to say, the meditators get annoyed
                        at me because they think I am insulting them.
                         They say “when we say, over and over again, in
                        the first pages of every piece of our
                        literature, and again every three pages after
                        that, that `all that is illusion’ “, we don’t
                        mean that all that is illusion.  You strawman
                        us.  Seriously?<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt;
                        font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p
                          class=""> </o:p></div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt;
                        font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I
                        guess that’s how either discipline-specific or
                        idiosyncratic speech habits work.  What is
                        unexplainably self-evident to one person is
                        mystifying to somebody else.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt;
                        font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p
                          class=""> </o:p></div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                    Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Eric <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                </div>
                <div class="">
                  <div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                    Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
                </div>
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