<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div dir="auto">Interesting point. What do the others think? </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I think if you start with an "X" at the top and consider the X as your agent and the space to the left and right as the environment then yes, we would have a kind of stygmergy model for an agent which interacts in a two dimensional world (one space and one time dimension). It is a rather limited model though. I am not sure if it is useful :-/</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">-J.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div><br></div><div align="left" dir="auto" style="font-size:100%;color:#000000"><div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: thompnickson2@gmail.com </div><div>Date: 10/19/21 21:28 (GMT+01:00) </div><div>To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam@redfish.com> </div><div>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development </div><div><br></div></div><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal">Thanks, Jochen, for answering. </p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Let me try to stretch the point and see if I can bring you on board. In the first place, mimimally, stygmergy need not involve sociality. So, If I go out on a hike and cut blazes on trees on my way out so I can find my way home, that is stygmergy in good standing, right? </p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Now let\u2019s try a very simple ca where the rule is, if nothing is written, write x; if x, white o beside; if o, write x beside. </p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p style="text-align:center" align="center" class="MsoNormal">X</p><p style="text-align:center" align="center" class="MsoNormal">OXO</p><p style="text-align:center" align="center" class="MsoNormal">XOXOX </p><p style="text-align:center" align="center" class="MsoNormal">ETC. </p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Now, if we consider what is written at each stage as a thing put out in the environment and the \u201crules\u201d what the organism brings to the table then each line is the joint product of the previous line and the rule, hence stygmergy. </p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Am I stretching a point. Is everything not stygmergy?</p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">N</p><p style="text-align:right" align="right" class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson</p><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jochen Fromm<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 19, 2021 1:05 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development</p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal">No, CAs are not a good model for stygmergy IMHO. Stygmergy is as Wikipedia says a mechanism of indirect coordination through the environment. For example: ants which exploit a food source by following a pheromone trail. Or termites which build a nest. </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br>In Cellular Automata there is no clear distinction between agent and environment. They are just a grid of states which evolves step by step by updating the cells with a transition rule or function.<br><br>The other type of collective intelligence besides stygmergy is swarm formation. The individual member is attracted to the group as a whole but repelled by other individuals. You know the classic Boids rules which govern fish swarms and bird flocks: "stay close to the group but keep away from your neighbors".<br><br>For more complex things you probably need a code. If the individuals are smart, then a few rules are enough - holy books have typically only a few MB. If the individuals are lifeless molecules, then the code can be several GB (a human genome has roughly 3 GB).</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Hope that helps a bit? You are lucky to have such a smart grandson! I believe Frank has grandchildren too.<br><br>Jochen</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">-------- Original message --------</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">From: <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Date: 10/19/21 20:15 (GMT+01:00) </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Subject: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p></div><div><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Friends,</p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Beware. As usual, I am trying to get you to think for me.</p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">My grandson is working on a regeneration project in his freshman biolab (Planaria) and his sources and texts are replete with cognitive language like \u201csignal\u201d and \u201cmemory\u201d etc., which implies that as the worm regenerates it is influenced by a guiding idea of what it is producing. My basic intuition, as you know, that this doesn\u2019t happen in human cognition, let alone worm regeneration and that processes that produce a functional head from a slice of the rear end of a flatworm have no idea what they are doing even when they are done. Thus I imagine an advancing edge of structure with each new bit influencing the rules by which the next bit . Which, of course, puts me in mind both of stygmergy and of Cellular Automata. So to my questions:</p><p class="quotation">Are Cellular Automata a good model for Stygmergy?</p><p class="quotation">Is Stygmergy a good model for organismic development? </p><p class="quotation">Why? Or Why not? Discuss. </p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> </p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Also, is there a good website, citizen-friendly, steep learning curve, where my grandson and I could explore the relation between developmental processes and ca\u2019s. I looked at NewLogo Library and did not find there any models of regeneration, but may not have known where to look. I did find <a href="https://distill.pub/2020/growing-ca/">THIS</a> which deep down in the Table of Contents seemed to have three regeneration models including one named \u201cPlanaria\u201d, but I could no see how to go further with it. If somebody could have a look at it and give me some tips for how to use it, I would be ever so grateful. </p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> </p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Good to be back. </p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> </p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Nick </p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> </p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> </p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson</p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a></p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a></p><p style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto" class="MsoNormal"> </p></div></div></body></html>