<div dir="ltr">So... yeah... if Steve was in a conversation with me, and tried to act proud of beating his drunk buddies in poker... that's exactly what I was agreeing would be cringe... but nothing that he said has any connection with the type of strategy that goes into professional poker playing. Why not point out that the main technical skill in chess or go is "to play less poorly than the other player"? Obviously that's what you are trying to do, but what does that mean, and how do you pull it off against opponents who have dedicated several thousand hours to studying the game? <div><br></div><div>Like, here is an hour-long seminar, with simulations, that JUST covers some aspects of how you should play the turn card in Texas Holdem when you are in a middle position versus the big blind. Matt starts out summarizing how you get to that point, then the solver comes about 7 minutes in: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl4MpNxS_3M">Improve your Turn Strategy with Matt Affleck - YouTube</a> ..--- If I ran into Matt, I suspect he'd be pretty humble... but if he was proud of how good he was at poker, I wouldn't think that was cringy at all... I've probably watched 20-40 hours of his videos, and the way he's manipulating the simulations, the concepts he's extracting from them, AND his ability to sit down and implement those strategies is impressive. <div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div></div></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="mailto:echarles@american.edu" target="_blank"></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><div>This book is 480 pages about the modern conception of game theory optimal play, and I doubt any academic book about game theory is going to have better explanations of what game theory is trying to accomplish: <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Poker-Theory-unbeatable-principles/dp/1909457892#customerReviews">Modern Poker Theory: Building an unbeatable strategy based on GTO principles: Acevedo, Michael: 9781909457898: Amazon.com: Books</a> - I've chatted with Michael online, and he's way more humble than he should be. He has videos where he chats with Bert Stevens, who is off and on the #1 player in the world, and they are awesomely educational. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 9:23 PM Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 11/7/21 12:02 PM, David Eric Smith
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
There must be some kind of “Back to the future” movie that can be
made out of this. Doyne Farmer in Vegas all over again, but with
current-era AI in place of toe-operated computers. <br>
</blockquote>
<p>Yah! Surely Casinos can't begin to restrict
computers(phones)/earbuds, etc. on the gaming floor.</p>
<p>Strange coincidence that my sister went to Kindergarten with
Vance Packard (Norm's brother) in Silver City long before they all
became eagle scouts and then the Chaos Cabal. We moved away the
next year and I doubt I ever met any of them back then. I came
to LANL just before (I think) Doyne came... I seem to remember
that Norm was there for a summer... and soon came the (in)famous
CA conference... As I remember it the game of interest (aside
from Life, what with Conway in attendance) was GO with a lot of
speculation about the implications of local vs global
"intelligence"... I was intrigued by HashLife and it's
implications for finding structure at many scales... I still hope
for someone with more follow-through than I have to implement a
more redundant but "thorough" space-time decomposition (an N-1xN-1
kernel over the 4 positions at each "zoom" level).</p>
<p>Regarding poker.. I played some low-stakes in college and saw
there were two things to take in: the main technical skill was
to simply play less poorly than the other players at the table and
that was entirely overshadowed by the social-engineering games of
bluffing, etc. The very simple game-theoretic aspect of not
depleting your own stake before you catch a "lucky streak" going
your way was also a good understanding. I played with my "boss"
and a number of peers at the time and realized that it was more
about jockeying for position at work and drinking beer than it was
about winning/losing. I think the most I ever lost/won was on the
order of $20-$40 which in those days was roughly 1-2 shifts
wages... a LOT if I joined them weekly... too rich for my blood!
I still feel that *technically* playing well really means just
playing less badly. Blackjack being even more obviously so?<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yikes.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Nov 7, 2021, at 1:56 PM, Marcus Daniels
<<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">My inclination would be
to invest in standoff biometrics (e.g. Eulerian Video
Amplification) and then find the best poker playing
code. It ought to be possible to automate and
perhaps get rich in the process.<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div>
<div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span> </span>Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span> </span></b>Eric
Charles<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Sunday,
November 7, 2021 7:42 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span> </span>The Friday
Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re: [FRIAM]
lurking<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I DID
read all the thread so far... but I'm curious how
we got to one of the starting points: "as cringy
as it may be for some dork to be proud of their
Poker prowess" <br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I am somewhat
satisfied with my Poker mediocrity,
certainly not proud of it... but if I
met someone who was ACTUALLY
startlingly better than I am, and they
were proud of that, I wouldn't find it
cringy. (Ditto in my other hobbies,
like Aikido.)<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I guess if I met
someone who had a slight edge in their
drunk-buddy home games, and they were
super proud of THAT, then i would find
it cringy. (Ditto someone who's the
best Aikido student in their small
dojo, but who's obviously not more
than that.) <u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">When I see
academic work on game theory, it's
usually of lower quality than what the
good poker players are doing these
days. Mastering the game is crazy
hard, and being able to sit down and
implement a coherent and winning
strategy for 40-80 hours a week is not
easy. So... why would that be cringe? <u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On
Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 1:42 PM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Ok,
part of the story is knowing what is really
needed for reproducibility as a function of
context.<br>
With that, then there's the matter of how much
control is afforded. Is it programmable in
predictable ways?<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$<br>
Sent: Wednesday, November 3, 2021 8:20 AM<br>
To:<span> </span><a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] lurking<br>
<br>
Yeah, I agree. But context is Queen. When the
virus is created in the lab, it's done with real
stuff distilled from the soupy world. Given
enough of a difference in context, the robot may
not be able to re-constitute the life because
the soupy world surrounding the robot doesn't
have the real stuff required. Such drastic
context changes could be a result of translation
through space or time. E.g. trying to construct,
on Mars, an organism read/serialized on earth.
Or e.g. trying to construct an organism read
millennia ago, millennia in the future. It's
naive to talk about "science" as if any given
read-out formula thereby expressed is
*complete*. Science is abstraction to a large
extent ... maybe not as abstracting as math, of
course. And science must remain "open" precisely
because any formula it expresses is suspect,
perhaps incomplete.<br>
<br>
My favorite example is the magic brewing stick:<span> </span><a href="https://medievalmeadandbeer.wordpress.com/2019/05/04/scandinavian-yeast-logs-yeast-rings/" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">https://medievalmeadandbeer.wordpress.com/2019/05/04/scandinavian-yeast-logs-yeast-rings/</a><span> </span>It *was*
scientific to lay out the magic stick as a
critical element of the brewing process, only to
discover later that the stick isn't the
important part.<br>
<br>
On 11/2/21 2:39 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
> Even if that were so, viruses have been
pulled from history or tweaked and created in
the lab. So we have a design specification,
and the means to make it. One could imagine a
robot fabricating the close-to-the-metal machine
too. There is a story one can write down how
it is done. If there is no story, it is not
science we are talking about, it is something
else. <span> </span><br>
<br>
<br>
--<span> </span><br>
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed
with a lie."<br>
<span>☤</span>>$
uǝlƃ<br>
<br>
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<span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">FRIAM-COMIC<span> </span></span><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,t2v4djJabF5YoxHP9TWOogbl_lizkTlBDrWNSYFDyFQc2oEqq-ghR0tsH7hnRt9tZjI3-MOOrEuLks0GJ9lideLCkCUiGBWRpBsaKIPTaH5r1tdRiQGZ4_qgkg,,&typo=1" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,t2v4djJabF5YoxHP9TWOogbl_lizkTlBDrWNSYFDyFQc2oEqq-ghR0tsH7hnRt9tZjI3-MOOrEuLks0GJ9lideLCkCUiGBWRpBsaKIPTaH5r1tdRiQGZ4_qgkg,,&typo=1</a><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">archives:</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">5/2017 thru present<span> </span></span><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,1HwvCHzBMHc9q8dL9FwTD6thlBDdmw7i9bSUZebmdoy7AlNV8bl5Inpn6PlDWdxaOG1_3wNax5YCtb2P3_Ct_dVSvtqcKX0fU7ehAs56Y-D2MA,,&typo=1" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,1HwvCHzBMHc9q8dL9FwTD6thlBDdmw7i9bSUZebmdoy7AlNV8bl5Inpn6PlDWdxaOG1_3wNax5YCtb2P3_Ct_dVSvtqcKX0fU7ehAs56Y-D2MA,,&typo=1</a><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">1/2003 thru 6/2021 </span><a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></div>
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam
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archives:
5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
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.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives:<br>
5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote></div>