<div dir="ltr">So... yeah... if Steve was in a conversation with me, and tried to act proud of beating his drunk buddies in poker... that's exactly what I was agreeing would be cringe... but nothing that he said has any connection with the type of strategy that goes into professional poker playing. Why not point out that the main technical skill in chess or go is "to play less poorly than the other player"? Obviously that's what you are trying to do, but what does that mean, and how do you pull it off against opponents who have dedicated several thousand hours to studying the game? <div><br></div><div>Like, here is an hour-long seminar, with simulations, that JUST covers some aspects of how you should play the turn card in Texas Holdem when you are in a middle position versus the big blind. Matt starts out summarizing how you get to that point, then the solver comes about 7 minutes in: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl4MpNxS_3M">Improve your Turn Strategy with Matt Affleck - YouTube</a>   ..--- If I ran into Matt, I suspect he'd be pretty humble... but if he was proud of how good he was at poker, I wouldn't think that was cringy at all... I've probably watched 20-40 hours of his videos, and the way he's manipulating the simulations, the concepts he's extracting from them, AND his ability to sit down and implement those strategies is impressive. <div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div></div></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="mailto:echarles@american.edu" target="_blank"></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><div>This book is 480 pages about the modern conception of game theory optimal play, and I doubt any academic book about game theory is going to have better explanations of what game theory is trying to accomplish:   <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Poker-Theory-unbeatable-principles/dp/1909457892#customerReviews">Modern Poker Theory: Building an unbeatable strategy based on GTO principles: Acevedo, Michael: 9781909457898: Amazon.com: Books</a> - I've chatted with Michael online, and he's way more humble than he should be. He has videos where he chats with Bert Stevens, who is off and on the #1 player in the world, and they are awesomely educational.  </div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 9:23 PM Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div>On 11/7/21 12:02 PM, David Eric Smith
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      There must be some kind of “Back to the future” movie that can be
      made out of this.  Doyne Farmer in Vegas all over again, but with
      current-era AI in place of toe-operated computers.  <br>
    </blockquote>
    <p>Yah!  Surely Casinos can't begin to restrict
      computers(phones)/earbuds, etc.  on the gaming floor.</p>
    <p>Strange coincidence that my sister went to Kindergarten with
      Vance Packard (Norm's brother) in Silver City long before they all
      became eagle scouts and then the Chaos Cabal.  We moved away the
      next year and I doubt I ever met any of them back then.   I came
      to LANL just before (I think) Doyne came... I seem to remember
      that Norm was there for a summer...  and soon came the (in)famous
      CA conference...   As I remember it the game of interest (aside
      from Life, what with Conway in attendance) was GO with a lot of
      speculation about the implications of local vs global
      "intelligence"...   I was intrigued by HashLife and it's
      implications for finding structure at many scales... I still hope
      for someone with more follow-through than I have to implement a
      more redundant but "thorough" space-time decomposition (an N-1xN-1
      kernel over the 4 positions at each "zoom" level).</p>
    <p>Regarding poker.. I played some low-stakes in college and saw
      there were two things to take in:   the main technical skill was
      to simply play less poorly than the other players at the table and
      that was entirely overshadowed by the social-engineering games of
      bluffing, etc.   The very simple game-theoretic aspect of not
      depleting your own stake before you catch a "lucky streak" going
      your way was also a good understanding.   I played with my "boss"
      and a number of peers at the time and realized that it was more
      about jockeying for position at work and drinking beer than it was
      about winning/losing.  I think the most I ever lost/won was on the
      order of $20-$40 which in those days was roughly 1-2 shifts
      wages... a LOT if I joined them weekly... too rich for my blood! 
      I still feel that *technically* playing well really means just
      playing less badly.   Blackjack being even more obviously so?<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Yikes.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div><br>
        <div><br>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <div>On Nov 7, 2021, at 1:56 PM, Marcus Daniels
              <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
              wrote:</div>
            <br>
            <div>
              <div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
                <div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">My inclination would be
                  to invest in standoff biometrics (e.g. Eulerian Video
                  Amplification) and then find the best poker playing
                  code.   It ought to be possible to automate and
                  perhaps get rich in the process.<u></u><u></u></div>
                <div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div>
                <div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
                  <div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span> </span>Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span> </span><b>On
                      Behalf Of<span> </span></b>Eric
                    Charles<br>
                    <b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Sunday,
                    November 7, 2021 7:42 AM<br>
                    <b>To:</b><span> </span>The Friday
                    Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
                    <b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re: [FRIAM]
                    lurking<u></u><u></u></div>
                </div>
                <div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I DID
                      read all the thread so far... but I'm curious how
                      we got to one of the starting points: "as cringy
                      as it may be for some dork to be proud of their
                      Poker prowess" <br clear="all">
                      <u></u><u></u></div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I am somewhat
                                  satisfied with my Poker mediocrity,
                                  certainly not proud of it... but if I
                                  met someone who was ACTUALLY
                                  startlingly better than I am, and they
                                  were proud of that, I wouldn't find it
                                  cringy. (Ditto in my other hobbies,
                                  like Aikido.)<u></u><u></u></div>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I guess if I met
                                  someone who had a slight edge in their
                                  drunk-buddy home games, and they were
                                  super proud of THAT, then i would find
                                  it cringy. (Ditto someone who's the
                                  best Aikido student in their small
                                  dojo, but who's obviously not more
                                  than that.) <u></u><u></u></div>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">When I see
                                  academic work on game theory, it's
                                  usually of lower quality than what the
                                  good poker players are doing these
                                  days. Mastering the game is crazy
                                  hard, and being able to sit down and
                                  implement a coherent and winning
                                  strategy for 40-80 hours a week is not
                                  easy. So... why would that be cringe? <u></u><u></u></div>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On
                        Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 1:42 PM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
                        wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
                      <div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Ok,
                        part of the story is knowing what is really
                        needed for reproducibility as a function of
                        context.<br>
                        With that, then there's the matter of how much
                        control is afforded.   Is it programmable in
                        predictable ways?<br>
                        <br>
                        -----Original Message-----<br>
                        From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
                        On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$<br>
                        Sent: Wednesday, November 3, 2021 8:20 AM<br>
                        To:<span> </span><a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
                        Subject: Re: [FRIAM] lurking<br>
                        <br>
                        Yeah, I agree. But context is Queen. When the
                        virus is created in the lab, it's done with real
                        stuff distilled from the soupy world. Given
                        enough of a difference in context, the robot may
                        not be able to re-constitute the life because
                        the soupy world surrounding the robot doesn't
                        have the real stuff required. Such drastic
                        context changes could be a result of translation
                        through space or time. E.g. trying to construct,
                        on Mars, an organism read/serialized on earth.
                        Or e.g. trying to construct an organism read
                        millennia ago, millennia in the future. It's
                        naive to talk about "science" as if any given
                        read-out formula thereby expressed is
                        *complete*. Science is abstraction to a large
                        extent ... maybe not as abstracting as math, of
                        course. And science must remain "open" precisely
                        because any formula it expresses is suspect,
                        perhaps incomplete.<br>
                        <br>
                        My favorite example is the magic brewing stick:<span> </span><a href="https://medievalmeadandbeer.wordpress.com/2019/05/04/scandinavian-yeast-logs-yeast-rings/" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">https://medievalmeadandbeer.wordpress.com/2019/05/04/scandinavian-yeast-logs-yeast-rings/</a><span> </span>It *was*
                        scientific to lay out the magic stick as a
                        critical element of the brewing process, only to
                        discover later that the stick isn't the
                        important part.<br>
                        <br>
                        On 11/2/21 2:39 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
                        > Even if that were so, viruses have been
                        pulled from history or tweaked and created in
                        the lab.   So we have a design specification,
                        and the means to make it.    One could imagine a
                        robot fabricating the close-to-the-metal machine
                        too.   There is a story one can write down how
                        it is done.   If there is no story, it is not
                        science we are talking about, it is something
                        else. <span> </span><br>
                        <br>
                        <br>
                        --<span> </span><br>
                        "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed
                        with a lie."<br>
                        <span>☤</span>>$
                        uǝlƃ<br>
                        <br>
                        <br>
                        .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-.
                        --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .<br>
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                        .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-.
                        --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .<br>
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                    </blockquote>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
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                ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
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              <span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">FRIAM-COMIC<span> </span></span><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,t2v4djJabF5YoxHP9TWOogbl_lizkTlBDrWNSYFDyFQc2oEqq-ghR0tsH7hnRt9tZjI3-MOOrEuLks0GJ9lideLCkCUiGBWRpBsaKIPTaH5r1tdRiQGZ4_qgkg,,&typo=1" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,t2v4djJabF5YoxHP9TWOogbl_lizkTlBDrWNSYFDyFQc2oEqq-ghR0tsH7hnRt9tZjI3-MOOrEuLks0GJ9lideLCkCUiGBWRpBsaKIPTaH5r1tdRiQGZ4_qgkg,,&typo=1</a><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
              <span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">archives:</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
              <span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">5/2017 thru present<span> </span></span><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,1HwvCHzBMHc9q8dL9FwTD6thlBDdmw7i9bSUZebmdoy7AlNV8bl5Inpn6PlDWdxaOG1_3wNax5YCtb2P3_Ct_dVSvtqcKX0fU7ehAs56Y-D2MA,,&typo=1" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,1HwvCHzBMHc9q8dL9FwTD6thlBDdmw7i9bSUZebmdoy7AlNV8bl5Inpn6PlDWdxaOG1_3wNax5YCtb2P3_Ct_dVSvtqcKX0fU7ehAs56Y-D2MA,,&typo=1</a><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
              <span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">1/2003 thru 6/2021  </span><a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></div>
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      <pre>.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe</a> <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives:
 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
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<br>
.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives:<br>
 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote></div>