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<p>Nick -</p>
<p>I was contemplating this very question this morning in an
entirely different context, though I am sure my lurking on these
threads has informed my thinking as well.</p>
<p>It seems to me that the question of "self" is central as
suggested/asserted by Glen (constantly?) and my current
apprehension of a more better notion of self involves the
superposition of what most of us would consider an extended self.
Extended in many dimensions, and with no bound other than a
practical one of how expansive our apprehension can be. We are
not just the "self" that we have become over a lifetime of
experiences, but the "self" that exists as standing wave in our
geospatial embedding (a flux of molecules flowing through us,
becoming us, being shed from us, etc), our entire filial relations
with other organisms (our pets, domesticates, food-sources,
scavengers of our food, etc, as well as our microbiome, up to
perhaps macroscopic parasites such as worms and lice we may
harbor). We are also the sum of our social relations and
affiliations with other humans and their constructs (Democrat
party, Proud Boys, Professional Poker League of America, etc).
We are in relation to objects and creatures and other sentients
which we are not at all (or only barely aware of)... we are
products of growing up in, or living in currently a landscape, a
cityscape, etc.)</p>
<p>I know this is somewhat oblique/tangential/orthogonal to the
point you are making, but I nevertheless felt compelled to make it
here as it schmears the question of self-knowledge in a (I
believe) significant way.</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/7/21 10:33 PM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Eric inter alia,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The position I have taken concerning self
knowledge is that all knowledge is of the form of inferences
made from evidence. To the extent that some sources of
knowledge may lead to better inferences-- may better prepare
the organism for what follows-- some may be more privileged
than others, but that privilege needs to be demonstrated.
Being in the same body as the knowing system does not grant
the knowing system any <b><i>a priori</i></b> privilege.
If you have followed me so far, then a self-knowing system is
using sensors to infer (fallibly) the state of itself. So if
Glen and Marcus concede that this is the only knowledge we
ever get about anything, than I will eagerly concede that this
is “self-knowledge”. It’s only if you claim that self-knowing
is of a different character than other-knowing, that we need
to bicker further. I stipulate that my point is trivial, but
not that it’s false. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have cc’d bits of the thread in below in
case you all have forgotten. I could not find any
contribution from Eric in this subject within the thread,
although he did have something to say about poker, hence I am
rethreading. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick . <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="adx">18</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img style="width:.8333in;height:.8333in"
id="Picture_x0020_38"
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<h3><span class="gd">uǝlƃ </span><span
class="gd"><span
style="font-family:"Segoe UI
Symbol",sans-serif">☤</span>>$</span><span
class="qu"> </span><span class="go"><a
href="https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1311182?hl=en"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">via</a> redfish.com </span><o:p></o:p></h3>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="g3">Nov 1, 2021, 4:20
PM (6 days ago)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="hb">to
</span><span class="g2">friam</span><span
class="hb"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Literal self-awareness is possible.
The flaw in your argument is that "self" is ambiguous
in the way you're using it. It's not ambiguous in the
way me or Marcus intend it. You can see this nicely if
you elide "know" from your argument. We know nothing.
The machine knows nothing. Just don't use the word
"know" or the concept it references. There need not
be a model involved, either, only sensors and things
to be sensed. <br>
<br>
Self-sensing means there is a feedback loop between
the sensor and the thing it senses. So, the sensor
measures the sensed and the sensed measures the
sensor. That is self-awareness. There's no need for
any of the psychological hooha you often object to.
There's no need for privileged information *except*
that there has to be a loop. If anything is
privileged, it's the causal loop.<br>
<br>
The real trick is composing multiple self-self loops
into something resembling what we call a conscious
agent. We can get to the uncanny valley with regular
old self-sensing control theory and robotics. Getting
beyond the valley is difficult: <a
href="https://youtu.be/D8_VmWWRJgE" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://youtu.be/D8_VmWWRJgE</a>
A similar demonstration is here: <a
href="https://youtu.be/7ncDPoa_n-8" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://youtu.be/7ncDPoa_n-8</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img
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src="cid:part3.tazmNNt5.L21Qi0Cs@swcp.com" class=""
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<p class="MsoNormal">Attachments area<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="azo"><a
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8_VmWWRJgE&authuser=0"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
class="a3i"><span style="color:blue">Preview
YouTube video Realistic and Interactive Robot
Gaze</span></span><o:p></o:p></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:blue"><a
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8_VmWWRJgE&authuser=0"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:blue;text-decoration:none"><img
style="width:5.0in;height:3.75in"
id="Picture_x0020_35"
src="cid:part4.AB8eE43U.HCruzzgq@swcp.com"
class="" width="480" height="360" border="0"></span><span
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style="width:.1666in;height:.1666in"
id="Picture_x0020_34"
src="cid:part5.0SvdrQqV.QDyzKv0Z@swcp.com"
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><o:p></o:p></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="azo"><a
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ncDPoa_n-8&authuser=0"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span class="a3i"><span
style="color:blue">Preview YouTube video Mark Tilden
explaining Walkman (VBug1.5) at the 1995 BEAM Robot
Games</span></span><o:p></o:p></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:blue"><a
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ncDPoa_n-8&authuser=0"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:blue;text-decoration:none"><img
style="width:5.0in;height:3.75in"
id="Picture_x0020_33"
src="cid:part6.ztWQUWVX.2ydvZoUg@swcp.com" class=""
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style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:blue"><a
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ncDPoa_n-8&authuser=0"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:blue;text-decoration:none"><img
style="width:.1666in;height:.1666in"
id="Picture_x0020_32"
src="cid:part5.0SvdrQqV.QDyzKv0Z@swcp.com" class=""
width="16" height="16" border="0"></span><span
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="azo"><a
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ncDPoa_n-8&authuser=0"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><o:p></o:p></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img style="width:.6666in;height:.6666in"
id="Picture_x0020_31"
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<h3><span class="gd">Marcus Daniels</span><span
class="qu"> </span><span class="go"><a
href="https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1311182?hl=en"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">via</a> redfish.com </span><o:p></o:p></h3>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="g3">Nov 2, 2021, 8:37
AM (5 days ago)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="hb">to
</span><span class="g2">The</span><span
class="hb"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">My point was that the cost to probe
some memory address is low. And all there is, is I/O
and memory. <br>
<br>
It does become difficult to track thousands of
addresses at once: Think of a debugger that has
millions of watchpoints. However, one could have
diagnostics compiled in to the code to check
invariants from time to time. I don't know why Nick
says there is no privilege. There can be complete
privilege. Extracting meaning from that access is
rarely easy, of course. Just as debugging any given
problem can be hard.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img
style="width:.0069in;height:.0069in"
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<h3><span class="gd">uǝlƃ </span><span
class="gd"><span
style="font-family:"Segoe UI
Symbol",sans-serif">☤</span>>$</span><span
class="qu"> </span><span class="go"><a
href="https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1311182?hl=en"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">via</a> redfish.com </span><o:p></o:p></h3>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="g3">Nov 2,
2021, 9:06 AM (5 days ago)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="hb">to
</span><span class="g2">friam</span><span
class="hb"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Well, I could be wrong. But both
Nick and EricC seem to argue there's no privilege "in
the limit" ... i.e. with infeasibly extensible
resources, perfect observability, etc. It's just a
reactionary position against those who believe in
souls or a cartesian cut. Ignore it. >8^D<br>
<br>
But I don't think there can be *complete* privilege.
Every time we think we come up with a way to keep the
black hats out, they either find a way in ... or find
a way to infer what's happening like with power or
audio profiles.<br>
<br>
I don't think anyone's arguing that peeks are
expensive. The argument centers around the impact of
that peek, how it's used. Your idea of compiling in
diagnostics would submit to Nick's allegation of a
*model*. I would argue we need even lower level
self-organization. I vacillate between thinking
digital computers could [not] be conscious because of
this argument; the feedback loops may have to be very
close to the metal, like fpga close. Maybe
consciousness has to be analog in order to realize
meta-programming at all scales?<o:p></o:p></p>
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id="Picture_x0020_26"
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