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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/8/21 10:24 AM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:015901d7d4c5$6e853b30$4b8fb190$@gmail.com">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">In this argument of what is and what is not conscious, the key issue for me always is what the hell are we trying to preserve for humans uniquely and why. Are slaves conscious? Are cows conscious? Are lobsters conscious? Are embryos conscious? Are plants conscious? Only when we clearly see our interest in the answer, can we begin to consider the question rationally. </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>My interest/stake in consciousness involves recognizing that *I*
do/experience/have/am
something I call consciousness (a combination of awareness,
agency, self-awareness, etc), I see behaviour in other humans
which seems like the same thing. I operate *as if* others'
conciousness-appearing behaviour IS the same thing. I also see
such behaviour (to a lesser degree/qualitatively?) in animals,
with the most familiar (say dogs) the strongest and large mammals
(bears, elephants, cetaceans) not far behind, and those far from
me in familiarity/self-image (microbes, weird insects, weird
vertebrates, etc.) seeming *less conscious*. <br>
</p>
<p>En complement to this, I recently picked up Peter Godfrey-Kress'
<a
href="https://www.amazon.com/Other-Minds-Octopus-Origins-Consciousness/dp/0374537194/ref=asc_df_0374537194/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312057593249&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3017644539488572053&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030505&hvtargid=pla-404205711058&psc=1">Other
Minds</a> because of my fascination with the invertebrate
molluscular *apparent* conscoiusness observed in many Krakii.</p>
<p>What I'm truly more interested in is what I can only refer to as
"Collective Emergent Consciousness". If we attribute the basic
nature of life to be rooted in "sensing and acting" with an
implicit goal of surviving/thriving *in the world*. To this end I
assume that living entities have *some* kind of internal model of
the external world which facilitates this. Roughly
"agency"? Eusocial creatures have a rudimentary form of
"Collective Consciousness" by my definition/measure. To the
extent that humans (in families, in villages, in societies, in
nation states, in global culture/civilization) have collective
interests and activities, I see that as the basis for an emerging
*consciousness*.</p>
<p>I am NOT as NST suggests seeking to reserve "consciousness" for
humans (individual or collective) but rather trying to understand
what it might be en-expansion/abstraction and whether it promises
(offers?) to provide some of the kind of self-correction for our
collective human action that we come to expect of it in the
individual. I'm seeking it as an alternative to the homeostatic
feedback loops we (collectively) experienced in earlier states of
our evolution where geography, forest/savannah,
predator/prey/competing species all helped to keep us both in
check and vital. It feels we are already running "open loop" in
many ways. <br>
</p>
<p>To that end I am considering what "emergent collective"
properties populations on the cusp of finding new modes (eg.
becoming eusocial) might experience and wondering if we can
*recognize) much less cultivate those properties.</p>
<p>Fumble, <br>
</p>
<p> -Steve<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:015901d7d4c5$6e853b30$4b8fb190$@gmail.com">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
Nick Thompson
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a>
-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 9:23 AM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] lurking
Thanks, Steve. A reminder the movie event is this Thursday: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://watch.eventive.org/aware/play/615f2c9cfb31210037ecade7">https://watch.eventive.org/aware/play/615f2c9cfb31210037ecade7</a>
And although these may be overvalued, they and ones like them are finally showing some progress:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/CMPS?p=CMPS&.tsrc=fin-srch">https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/CMPS?p=CMPS&.tsrc=fin-srch</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/MNMD?p=MNMD&.tsrc=fin-srch">https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/MNMD?p=MNMD&.tsrc=fin-srch</a>
The argument surrounding plant awareness and expression is interesting. It makes sense to me to argue that if plants are "sentient" in any operable sense, their communication and self-sensing would occur at the molecular scale, perhaps going outward a bit to tissue and inward a bit to coherence. (Interesting, if a bit romantic, essay here: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://quantumfrontiers.com/2021/11/07/entangled-fields-and-post-anthropocene-computation-quantum-perspectives-for-a-healthy-planet/">https://quantumfrontiers.com/2021/11/07/entangled-fields-and-post-anthropocene-computation-quantum-perspectives-for-a-healthy-planet/</a>) But my guess is most of the larger scale sounds plants generate are non-sentient acoustic emission, like your motor clicking after you shut it off. But who knows, vibration may be similar to "force-based" treatments like physical therapy or massage ... or even acupressure. Just because acupuncture seems like pure pseudoscience, other force-based therapy, including vibration-based may have finer grained impact than we can currently account for (e.g. <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/physics-and-astronomy/ultrasonic-cavitation">https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/physics-and-astronomy/ultrasonic-cavitation</a>). Heliotropism is also a thing, I guess.
On 11/1/21 1:37 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I found this article on consciousness interestingly broadening of my own view of it:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.geekwire.com/2021/neuroscientist-recounts-long-strange-tri">https://www.geekwire.com/2021/neuroscientist-recounts-long-strange-tri</a>
p-plumb-depths-consciousness/
</pre>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
--
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
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