<div dir="auto">People game because the 'game world' is consistent. If you do the correct things, you always get the reward. <div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">In contrast, the real world isn't fair. You can be the hardest worker yet someone else gets the promotion.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Paraphrase of 'Reality Is Broken' by McGonigal.</div><div dir="auto"><a href="https://books.google.com/books/about/Reality_Is_Broken.html?id=yiOtN_kDJZgC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&gboemv=1">https://books.google.com/books/about/Reality_Is_Broken.html?id=yiOtN_kDJZgC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&gboemv=1</a><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"> Curt</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 2, 2021, 10:10 AM Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Before the thread leaves games for consciousness ...<br>
<br>
A couple of years back, World of Warcraft passed the 1 billion player hour mark. That is just one game. A survey somewhere around that time claimed that self identified gamers averaged 30+ hours a week engaged in games. The low end of the curve was 20 hours a week (if you did not play that much, I guess you did not consider yourself a gamer) and the high end was well over 100 hours a week.<br>
<br>
The question of the day (then): why do people spend enjoy games so much more than real life and especially work life? There was a 'movement', under the umbrella label of "gamification" to apply ideas/principles supposedly gleamed from analysis of why games were so compelling and apply those ideas to education and work in specific, but also life in general. <br>
<br>
I have half-dozen or so books on this subject and will look them up if anyone is interested.<br>
<br>
davew<br>
<br>
<br>
On Tue, Nov 2, 2021, at 8:36 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
> My point was that the cost to probe some memory address is low. And <br>
> all there is, is I/O and memory. <br>
><br>
> It does become difficult to track thousands of addresses at once: <br>
> Think of a debugger that has millions of watchpoints. However, one <br>
> could have diagnostics compiled in to the code to check invariants from <br>
> time to time. I don't know why Nick says there is no privilege. <br>
> There can be complete privilege. Extracting meaning from that access <br>
> is rarely easy, of course. Just as debugging any given problem can be <br>
> hard.<br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$<br>
> Sent: Monday, November 1, 2021 3:20 PM<br>
> To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] lurking<br>
><br>
> Literal self-awareness is possible. The flaw in your argument is that <br>
> "self" is ambiguous in the way you're using it. It's not ambiguous in <br>
> the way me or Marcus intend it. You can see this nicely if you elide <br>
> "know" from your argument. We know nothing. The machine knows nothing. <br>
> Just don't use the word "know" or the concept it references. There <br>
> need not be a model involved, either, only sensors and things to be <br>
> sensed. <br>
><br>
> Self-sensing means there is a feedback loop between the sensor and the <br>
> thing it senses. So, the sensor measures the sensed and the sensed <br>
> measures the sensor. That is self-awareness. There's no need for any of <br>
> the psychological hooha you often object to. There's no need for <br>
> privileged information *except* that there has to be a loop. If <br>
> anything is privileged, it's the causal loop.<br>
><br>
> The real trick is composing multiple self-self loops into something <br>
> resembling what we call a conscious agent. We can get to the uncanny <br>
> valley with regular old self-sensing control theory and robotics. <br>
> Getting beyond the valley is difficult: <a href="https://youtu.be/D8_VmWWRJgE" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/D8_VmWWRJgE</a> A <br>
> similar demonstration is here: <a href="https://youtu.be/7ncDPoa_n-8" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/7ncDPoa_n-8</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On 11/1/21 2:08 PM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
>> In fact, strictly speaking, I think literal self-awareness is impossible. Because, whatever a machine knows about itself, it is a MODEL of itself based on well situated sensors of its own activities, just like you are and I am. There is no privileged access, just bettah or wussah access.<br>
><br>
> -- <br>
> "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."<br>
> \u2624>$ u\u01ddl\u0183<br>
><br>
><br>
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</blockquote></div>